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BUMFFPITCHH.. H?

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BUMFFPITCHH.. H?

Old 15th Mar 2021, 13:59
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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I get my pre-landing checks out of the way before joining the circuit. This way I can concentrate on flying the aircraft and on keeping a good lookout.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 14:44
  #42 (permalink)  
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Having pre landing checks completed before joining the circuit, though not technically wrong, may not be ideal either. Depending upon the type, it could mean dragging the plane into the circuit with the wheels and flaps extended, and the prop at full fine. Needlessly inefficient, and noisy for people on the ground. I generally feel more comfortable about the need for a lookout being a bit more relaxed, once I'm established in the circuit. Once I have confirmed my awareness of other traffic, their location/relative position is a bit more predictable than away from the airport environment, where altitudes and directions can be more random. That gives me a better feeling about accomplishing "head in" pre landing checks, while flying where I'm predicted to be, around other airplanes, whose position I can predict.

Ultimately, for the amphibian training I do, I would not accept a pre landing landing gear position check as being complete before entering the downwind. In my mind, by the time you get to short final, it's too stale. For landing gear position confirmation, it's pre landing for me....
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 23:57
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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No reason checks can't be done more than once.

I generally do pre-landing checks on the way into the airfield, then if I've joined downwind, I'll do them again. Repeating a checklist - a check that you've missed nothing important, does no harm, and when I've already done it once, it is something I can do very quickly.

G
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 12:02
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR View Post
Having pre landing checks completed before joining the circuit, though not technically wrong, may not be ideal either. Depending upon the type, it could mean dragging the plane into the circuit with the wheels and flaps extended, and the prop at full fine. ..
I fly non-complex aircraft. I do not deploy flap before joining the circuit.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 16:59
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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I generally do pre-landing checks on the way into the airfield, then if I've joined downwind, I'll do them again.
There are two sets of checks that are appropriate but they are not the same;

Pre-joining: Fuel on best tank, Radios set for the join and circuit, Engine mixture as required, Ts and Ps, Direction - HI set, circuit joining revised , Altimeter set (QNH/QFE), Airfield/threshold elevation.

Pre-landing: downwind/Extended base or long final as appropriate. BUMPFH being a generic heads up only as required - not a detailed mnemonic that probably can't be remembered, you must know what to do which is relevant to your aeroplane

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 16th Mar 2021 at 17:10.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 18:03
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Ditto...............
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 18:28
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Obviously everyone above has demosnstrated what mixed arrangements they favour and their own unflinchingly defended their own check system.
I fly a very simple a/c and the above pundits generally seem diplay unwieldy standsards.& conflicting messages.

IMHO if a check list for one's a/c is on one's knee pad and a mnemonic helps, why codemn its repetition or redundant words ? One day they may save your U/c !
Alternatively are we really expected to tailor the pre-landing sequence to suit every different a/c ?
Which rather defeats its purpose of covering essential items, And allows a full look outside when near an a/field - rather than head down doggedly list reading.
Chacun à son goût.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 22:40
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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are we really expected to tailor the pre-landing sequence to suit every different a/c
Yes.

if a check list for one's a/c is on one's knee pad and a mnemonic helps, why codemn its repetition or redundant words ? One day they may save your U/c !
Full of contradictions I'm afraid and is not supported by any evidence. I gave an example earlier in this thread demonstrating the poor value of a mnemonic even when associated with touch controls. This was not to reflect my point of view but is based on very real human factors. Things that are normal even when not in place can be supplemented by the brain. The accident statistics are full of incidents such as: I know I put the gear down, I always set the flap to landing and i don't know why they are up, I always apply carburettor heat before throttling back but your telling me the mixture was out and the carburettor heat was cold.

GASCo have a clip of a stage play of the Agatha Christie genre. The clip is shown a second time but the characters are clothed differently and items are missing. The audience are invited to spot changes.You may not be surprised by this not easy to spot. However during the second showing of the clip an actor in an apes costume crosses in the background and this is rarely observed. The brains were not activated by the owners to spot things new and therefore can edit out that which it is not expected or part of the job description.

The following is not uncommon: "I never bother with pre landing checks these days and nothing has ever happened, why should it"? Fortunately things rarely do go wrong but we shouldn't assume: because things haven't gone bad on us then its good to say that what we do is effective.

Si cela peut arriver, il sera

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 16th Mar 2021 at 23:02.
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 10:28
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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My own pre-landing check is quite comprehensive and covers all the a/c I currently fly, but is memorised as it should be. It does not involve any mnemonic and can be achieved almost exclusively whilst looking out, save for a glance at the distant fuel selector (in one or two cases) and at the 3 greens in one of our aircraft.

I disagree however, that memory aids do not have a place.

The vast majority of checkouts and all LPCs and LSTs - for VFR only pilots - include a PFL. Because these guys and gals generally don't practice enough, some struggle to remember what to do and in what order to do it. Mnemonics galore for situations where a checklist could much more safely be used, but when you really need help there isn't any!

I had the same problem thirty odd years ago so I invented my own mnemonic. It immediately got me doing everything that should be done, all in the correct order, allowing me to look out most of the time and improve my judgement (although that took a while). Of course it morphed into a string of memory items quite quickly.

I should have copyrighted it, they all wanted it.
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 11:14
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Well Mr. Average, and thank you

Please tell all, it won't be ignored as even an old bird can learn new tricks !
With an S6-116 there isn't much to do but it makes me happy to recall those long off days when learning to use the same 'good old' phrases, sort of keeps me engaged.

I am forced to agree, but more politely, that someone training others to fly as a living has a whole different set of considerations beyond the ones I require.
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 13:51
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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You'd have to be active to complete a checklist, whether on paper or not. So no matter how you do the checklist, I'd say that you're removing your attention from "looking out".... your looking out becomes more a glancing than actively looking.... and if you're actively looking, you're not paying attention to your checklist (paper or not), and your completion is just a glance where you don't see/interpret/understand what is in front of you.

The brain cannot do "two tasks at the same time", it can switch between tasks relatively fast though, but doing two tasks at the same time is more inefficient than one task at a time.

So better just place yourself in a situation where you can say "everything is safe for now.... time for the checks" and then return to actively looking out afterwards. It's way more efficient and safe for that matter.
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 17:31
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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??? I don't think you've watched a drummer, or a good guitarist who sings at the same time, or Bob Hoover in action. Many consider me somewhat limited in skill level, but I can certainly trim for best glide speed and assess the wind whilst also searching for the best field and staying level, looking out constantly. Must be my female side..............
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Old 17th Mar 2021, 23:14
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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Mr Average, your clearly not a musician if you think that. However, back to flying. I have flown for over 40 years and have approximately 12,000 hours or so instructing. I've been assessed for one reason or another most of these years. If the examiner has no criticism or feed back for me I feel cheated. A critical and knowledgeable observer is your best friend. Skills need continuous attention and knowledge evolves. The cousins Sod and Murphy feed on complacency and this should never to be forgotten.
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Old 18th Mar 2021, 10:21
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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I'm definitely not a musician. Tried every instrument without any success at all. But surely, playing a complex chord sequence and singing at the same time is two tasks at the same time? The same as tightening a nut with a ratchet while taking a sip of tea. If not I need to learn exactly what it is. I'm genuinely flummoxed.
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Old 18th Mar 2021, 11:49
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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During my instructor rating in a C-152 I seem to remember flying a whole circuit using the doors to turn the aircraft. I think the instructor was bored that day.
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Old 18th Mar 2021, 12:10
  #56 (permalink)  
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During my instructor rating in a C-152 I seem to remember flying a whole circuit using the doors to turn the aircraft.
When you open the left door 6 inches, which way does the plane turn? Why that way?
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Old 18th Mar 2021, 20:24
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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What sort of task do we mean when multitasking? Most people can do several common automatic tasks at the same time - but if much thought is needed it's different. And while the thinking brain is busy, I at least can perform a now inappropriate auto task, which I would normally do.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 00:08
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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The part of the brain with the function of decision making and interestingly, also emotion, is called the prefrontal cortex. It is commonly referred to as a single channel processor when discussing human factors and TEM. Therefore, we perform one complex task at a time. Yes, a couple of simple tasks, particularly those which are routine, can be undertaken simultaneously, but the outcomes cannot be relied upon. Whilst "multi-tasking" you will have little or no spare capacity for discovery. In the event a task is missed out the probability is that this will not be known. Should something unexpected occur you will have little or no response and any decisions are very likely to be poor or inappropriate.


Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 19th Mar 2021 at 00:18.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 10:31
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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First I want to reiterate my early comments with respect to an instructor telling a student to abort a takeoff if a cabin door opens “because the door could fall off and hit the aircraft”. I think this is utter rubbish and needs to get stamped out now.
LOL.

The logic was: If it opens, especially if it opens after you already checked it was properly shut, something might have broken that could lead to the door coming off in flight.

​​It's not gonna cost anything to stop and investigate - and it's not rubbish, as can be seen in the case of G-ASOS last year, where the baggage door wrapped itself around the tailplane and created control difficulty.

I'd rather abort than be a test pilot.

Obviously, the situation is different if you don't have enough runway to stop... but I thought there was enough common sense on this forum that I didn't have to point that out.

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Old 19th Mar 2021, 11:36
  #60 (permalink)  
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If, during a takeoff roll something happens which causes the pilot to decide to stop on the runway remaining ahead, and the pilot is confident that can be easily achieved, okay. The worst you're doing is causing a change in plan for a pilot behind you. But, bursting a tire with heavy braking, or going off the runway edge or end is certainly not worth it for a door opening. Based upon my experience, the only type which would really worry me if a door came open are a Piper Navajo nose baggage door (a well known preflight super check). Otherwise, I'm confident that the plane can be flown a circuit and landed safely, and most likely, without damage.
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