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UK NDB only timed approaches

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UK NDB only timed approaches

Old 16th Nov 2020, 16:24
  #21 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
Although I believe it's not a published procedure, Leicester used to have one, not sure if it's still there. Might be worth giving them a ring.
Yes, the NDB ďLEĒ on 383.5 is still there. Itís not supposed to be used other than in VMC, so not too useful.
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 17:08
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Used to tune up Atlantic 252 on the night crossings from North America years ago. Bit of radio gaga....
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 17:57
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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We used to have one at Cranfield on 21 and the CIT. Checking, it vanished at some point I wasn't paying attention, but the footprint is I think the same if you can find an old plate.

G
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 18:08
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Gloucester still has a published NDB approach based on timing only, in addition to the NDB/DME approaches for 09 and 27.
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 18:09
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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During my IR training I was taught to keep the NDB ident running in my audio as there was no failure flag. Not long afterwards, whilst carrying out such an approach, the audio suddenly ceased - going around I told ATC that their beacon was u/s but was surprised to be told “no it hasn’t “ followed a few seconds later by “ooops you’re right.”
Was wary of them from then on ..,

Last edited by ETOPS; 18th Nov 2020 at 08:32.
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 20:05
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Most airfields dispensed with their off field 4nm NDB many years ago.
Try the dreaded EX at Exeter. No idea why it hasn't been moved on to the airfield. Character building stuff, doing an NDB approach with the beacon behind you...

TOO
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 20:38
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For some reason the US is really fond of break away approaches and timing to the MAPt, instead of break towards approaches with the beacon on the field also serving as the MAPt.
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 21:17
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Iíve done a fair few for real but now with GPS whatís the point? I totally agree with the Rt Hon that NPAs have a far higher historical risk of CFIT, given an equal competence of operator. LNAV/VNAV minima are almost always better and in the commercial world, CDAs are the way we fly.

Good riddance!
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 22:04
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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It must have been about 10years ago they shut down the Charlie Tango at Coventry. Then Mercia sound 1359 AM located their transmitter just down the road in line with 23 and you could ident it from the music on their repetative playlist.
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 22:09
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Here's my thoughts on NDB's...

A couple of years ago, the VOR was off in KGS. For the whole summer. KGS seems a popular night trip. Crap runway lights and non-existent approach lighting. We were banned from doing night visuals by our "esteemed" management. Descending into a visual circuit was considered too risky. The only alternative was a cloud break NDB which left you in the middle of flipping nowhere. Have a look at the plate. The least risk option was to fly the VOR in managed, but not entirely legal as it was an overlay. Dual GPS and all the bells and whistles. Aircraft and crew RNP/AR. More than happy to fly the RNAV approaches into Innsbruck relying on the same bits of kit without raw data back up the very next day. Go figure....

Kind of like you are driving the most bang up to date car with your precious family onboard. But you are about to descend the Stelvio Pass. At night. It's wet and maybe slippery. Who would pull over and replace their bright and shiny Bi-Xenon headlights with the Lucas light bulbs from 1971? While you are it, disable the ABS. Why stop there? Traction control is for pussies. Airbags? Pah! You get the idea.

The world has moved on. Everyone of us (from IR students in a C152 to experienced crews in a Boeing or Airbus) deserve better than NDB approaches. They belong in history.
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 22:24
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Great for training spatial awareness!
In the grand old days of instructing it was necessary to hold at least a IMC rating. To upgrade from Assistant Flying Instructor (AFI) to Flying Instructor (FI) it was necessary to undertake an upgrade test. It was commonplace prior to this assessment to complete a course to teach applied instrument flying (IMC rating). On day one of my course the FIC instructor asked me what the main basis of my IMC training was: "NDB sir" I replied. His comment: "thank God for that, you will have spatial awareness, the VOR/ILS lot never know where they are".

What tells us much of yesterday times is the term given to the NDB onboard equipment that is: Automatic Direction Finding (ADF) radio. Hardly that of course in todays meaning of the words.
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 22:39
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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You called a civilian instructor Sir ????

I think that NDB approaches have value, maybe for SA, although I'm not altogether convinced by your argument that they give better SA than other systems - I don't think it gives me anything I don't get from, say a VOR/DME.

But the NDB is the most basic bit of navigational technology imaginable. It costs a fraction to install and maintain what a VOR or ILS does, an NDB basically needs a few hundred pounds worth of hardware and a power supply. I'd argue that it's the best possible backup to GPS because it's the cheapest and most robust. Yes, it is also very hard work to fly, but on the other hand once you've flown a timed NDB approach, everything else is easy - so it's not a bad training tool.

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 16th Nov 2020 at 22:53.
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 08:34
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
Most published procedures include an alternative timed procedure without DME.



What a strange thing to say. Follow the procedure in accordance with the design and above all comply with the published minima. If they weren't safe they wouldn't be there.
Thatís a very strange thing to say. If it was that easy for people to just follow the procedure then there would never have been a crash involving an NDB. In the same way that if people just took off and landed properly there would never have been an incident during those phases of flight. The reality is, as you know, NDBs are harder to fly with far more opportunity for screwing up than an ILS or an RNav approach.

Assume you donít wear a seatbelt when you drive? What would be the point, just donít crash.
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 09:15
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Genghis

CIT still on current Cranfield charts and, as far as I am aware, is still part of four of the procedural approaches. I haven't used it in a while though.

But perhaps you're saying Cranfield had two at one time?
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 10:12
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Its not going to happen that NDB procedures will be introduced at places where they do not currently exist. For the future GNSS procedures are becoming the norm and costing circa £30,000 per approach. NDBs will naturally fade out as the replacement parts become harder to find and the units become obsolete. Where an ADF radio can be found they are also likely to be refurbished units and can cost as much to install in an aeroplane from scratch as some WAAS enabled GPS units so an unlikely choice.

Tragically deaths involving the ILS are not unknown. Sometime ago at the 1000ft (QFE) check I was far too low (calculated using the DME readout) and so stopped the descent. I spent some time maintaining the localiser but remained puzzled before instinctively tapping the indicator glass, the crossbar sprang to life upwards and banged hard against the stop. I regained the glideslope, continued, broke cloud and landed safely. The indicator was, of course, removed and sent to maintenance. Before DME we had the NDB as the outer (and btw inner markers at MDH/A) marker which also served for the NDB let down. The NDB was ubiquitous in serving as an airfield locator and an approach aid. GNSS also does all of this of course plus more.

Spatial awareness was always and remains the most critical skill of instrument flight whatever the kit in use. I often hear of the cross bars being referred to as "command" indicators. They are not and never intended to be, they are simply: course deviation indicators (CDI)
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 11:40
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MrAverage View Post
Genghis

CIT still on current Cranfield charts and, as far as I am aware, is still part of four of the procedural approaches. I haven't used it in a while though.

But perhaps you're saying Cranfield had two at one time?
When I did my IMCR at EGTC I was regularly flying a timed NDB approach on the CIT, that approach is now only an NDB/DME approach, which arguably isn't very helpful as whilst easier to fly, it does require a working DME in the aeroplane and they had the same footprint so could be run in parallel. So why they withdrew it, I've no idea.

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 17th Nov 2020 at 12:09.
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 12:10
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The AIP still has a timed option for runway 21 at Cranfield
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 12:34
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Ah, I've just spotted it in the small print at the bottom of the plate, I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by UK AIP
AIRCRAFT UNABLE TO RECEIVE DME

Fly outbound prior to Baseturn or extended outbound leg of the NDB(L) CIT hold for 2.5MIN (CAT A); 2MIN (CAT B); 1.5MIN (CAT C) descending to 2500(2142). Then turn right to intercept the FAT. When established inbound descend not below 1560(1202) at the SDF (NDB(L) CIT), then to MDH.
G
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 12:57
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer View Post
You called a civilian instructor Sir ????

I think that NDB approaches have value, maybe for SA, although I'm not altogether convinced by your argument that they give better SA than other systems - I don't think it gives me anything I don't get from, say a VOR/DME.

But the NDB is the most basic bit of navigational technology imaginable. It costs a fraction to install and maintain what a VOR or ILS does, an NDB basically needs a few hundred pounds worth of hardware and a power supply. I'd argue that it's the best possible backup to GPS because it's the cheapest and most robust. Yes, it is also very hard work to fly, but on the other hand once you've flown a timed NDB approach, everything else is easy - so it's not a bad training tool.

G
To differentiate between speaking to him as the FIC instructor/examiner as opposed to speaking to him as the pretend student.
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 12:59
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
Its not going to happen that NDB procedures will be introduced at places where they do not currently exist. For the future GNSS procedures are becoming the norm and costing circa £30,000 per approach. (CDI)
I think your being optimistic. I am hearing stories of upwards of 200K being spent on getting GNSS approach approval and itís still not approved after some 6 years.

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