Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

IR and IR(R)

Old 22nd Oct 2020, 15:32
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: essex
Posts: 1
IR and IR(R)

Hello,

I have been searching online but unable to find a clear answer. What are the big differences between IR and IR(R)? I know I can commence IR(R) training with fewer hours than what is needed for IR, and also that IR(R) is only recognised in the UK.

If I intend on hour building and getting my CPL, IR and ME, is the IR(R) a pointless rating to get beforehand? or will it count in some way towards my IR?

Thanks



Lucy Golding is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 20:13
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 178
I speak as a holder of the IR(R) on a PPL with no ambitions to go further

IR(R) is UK only, more conservative minima and no Instrument Departures

Itís a shorter training requirement, it permits you to fly in IMC, the training makes you a better pilot, obviously trains and allows you to make instrument approaches and (speaking personally) will keep you alive

iím sure someone more qualified than me will confirm whether or not the hours count towards a full IR

150 Driver is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 20:56
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 37
Itís a chocolate tea pot if you want a commercial career.
S-Works is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 20:57
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Age: 42
Posts: 434
You absolutely should get an IRR! Everything counts towards the IR as you can upgrade an IRR to an IR through the CBIR route so it's a great stepping stone.
it'll basically save you a fortune.
rudestuff is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 20:59
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
You absolutely should get an IRR! Everything counts towards the IR as you can upgrade an IRR to an IR through the CBIR route so it's a great stepping stone.
it'll basically save you a fortune.
No it isnít.
S-Works is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 22:08
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Age: 42
Posts: 434
There's always one...
rudestuff is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 22:21
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 310
There is every point to do the IMC rating (the correct name) and you may do it immediately after gaining a PPL;

25 hours total experience as pilot following the issue of a PPL (which may include the training for the IMC rating). 10 hours as Pilot in Command (PIC), including 5 hours as PIC of aeroplanes on cross-country flights.

A well conducted IMC course will provide a good basis for your IR at half the hourly price. When conducted properly to a good standard it will keep your expensive IR training to the minimum. Choose your school for the IMC rating carefully and where the IR course requirements are well understood.

You are required to gain a lot of PIC time before starting a CPL course. You could of course fly endlessly around in circles like a tethered chicken or extend your knowledge by exploring the UK and Europe and having some fun. Holding the IMC rating will give you a considerable confidence in marginal weather and ensure your safety. The safety record of 40 plus years of IMC rated pilots is evidence of this. There is nothing more pleasurable than cruising above 8 oktas of cloud in stable air, sunshine and clear blue skies, whilst below its cold, wet and miserable.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 09:10
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 37
As the Head of Training of a school that trains massively for the IR I can assure you the U.K. IMC Rating is a waste of time towards your commercial IR. It is generally taught by people who have no experience of commercial IFR Ops and is usually taught badly. It means as a school we have to unwind all the bad habits and that takes longer than just teaching someone from zero.

You also need to consider the future if you are wanting a career in aviation as the U.K. leaves EASA in just over 8 weeks and the U.K. is not exactly a vibrant aviation industry. This means you need to look at another EASA state and as the U.K. IMC rating is not valid on any European licence nor does any of the training count toward a full IR it will be a wasted investment.
S-Works is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 12:23
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Age: 42
Posts: 434
Originally Posted by S-Works View Post
As the Head of Training of a school that trains massively for the IR I can assure you the U.K. IMC Rating is a waste of time towards your commercial IR. It is generally taught by people who have no experience of commercial IFR Ops and is usually taught badly.
Tell us more about this 'commercial IR' 😂
I just got a regular IR and that's worked fine for me so far. A commercial test is not an instrument test and an instrument test is not a commercial test. The cheapest way to get an IR in the UK is via the IRR - as long as you pass the test of course. That means the most important factor is going to a quality school. The fact is, schools want you to follow the 'full' IR route because they get a lot more money from you.
rudestuff is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 17:21
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Age: 75
Posts: 1,078
The Instrument Rating is a requirement for a CPL to fly IFR. Note that you can have a CPL without an instument rating but the commercial flying opportunities are somewhat limited. There are a fair number doing parachute drops, crop dusting, flying tourists around game reserves etc. If you want an airline job you are going to need an instument rating.
The IRR is a simplified rating which replaces the old uk-only IMC rating. It is designed to improve PPL safety by giving the skills required to safely land in IMC. It does not give you the right to commence a flight in IMC conditions. Highly recommended for any PPL as insurance against changing weather and to get above the clouds.

So it depends on your objectives - if you want an airline job get the (more expensive) IR, if you want to stay safer as a PPL get the IRR.
The Ancient Geek is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 17:59
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 310
Not so. A CPL may hold an IMC rating. The IMC grants full privileges to fly IFR (IMC or VFR) in UK Airspace except: IMC within Class A airspace and is also required to have a visibility of 1500 metres for take-off and landing. It is recommended that the IMC rated pilot adds at least 200 feet to the published approach minima but it is for the pilot to decide.

The IMC rating has not been replaced. The IR(R) is not a rating, it is simply a means to add the rating to a EASA licence. If you hold a UK PPL/CPL and a EASA compliant PPL/CPL the IMC is added using the correct name to the UK national licence but when entered into the EASA compliant licence it is added as a IR(R).
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 19:14
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The middle
Posts: 432
Despite what S-works would have you believe, as has been said by other posters the IR(R) should certainly form a part of your training during hours building.
If you look at the relevant CAA standards documents (1 for IR and 25 for IMC) you will see that the IR(R) test standards are slightly lower, but there is no reason why you shouldn’t be able to achieve the IR standards during an IR(R) test if you’ve been trained properly. Having been issued the rating, whilst it doesn’t allow you strictly to depart or arrive in IMC as you need 1500 metres visibility, it does allow you with careful flight planning to (for example) depart from Bristol in 1500m vis and 100 ft cloud base and fly in IMC to Glasgow and land there in 1500m vis and 100ft cloud base. That is the legal part, as if you are flying SEP it would not be sensible to operate with the cloud base much below 1000ft to give yourself a bit of a chance if you have an engine failure, so in practical terms in a single the only advantage of the IR over the IR(r) in the U.K. is the ability to enter class A airspace.
Get the IR(r), making sure that the instructor who trains you has experience of operating in the real world IFR environment (and there are plenty about who do), and make sure they know why you are getting the rating. After you’ve got the rating, assuming the instructor isn’t hours building get them to do some flights with you logging the P1 time and them as “safety pilot” until you feel confident, then do a good proportion of your hours building flying cross countries like the one I suggested, disciplining yourself to fly to the IR standards and approaches to IR minimas (MDA/DA + PEC). If you do that then the IR will be far easier when you start it, and the training and some of the flying will count towards the requirements for the competency based IR training. Anyone who suggests otherwise probably has a vested interest in seeing you spend a lot of money on IR training, rather than advising you how to follow the modular CPL / IR route as cheaply and efficiently as possible.
Before anyone picks that apart, your training has to cover proper navigation, met and fuel planning and selection of alternates before you launch for Glasgow, but there is no reason that that can’t be covered in a couple of hours with an instructor who knows what they are talking about.
excrab is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 22:58
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Temporarily Unsure!
Posts: 238
Excrab How do you get below the 100’ with an IMC/IR(R)?
rarelyathome is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 00:25
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 310
rarelyathome, I'm sure you know that the 100ft mentioned in excrab's post is only indicative as there is not a cloud base prescribed in the IMCr minimas. What you might not know is that the approach minimas require that only a runway reference is required to continue the approach below the published minima. It is quite common that the runway lights can be seen very clearly during an approach although you may still be within cloud.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 11:09
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 731
There's another significant point. The IMC written is tough and requires proper study. (It's a 2 hour written) As such it's a great insight into the level required for the IR or either set of commercial exams. We once had an IMC student fail the exam having very recently passed the ATPLs! Of course a written IMC pass wasn't actually required as the ATPLs were sufficient for rating issue, but it was an eye opener for the candidate.
MrAverage is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 11:32
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The middle
Posts: 432
Originally Posted by rarelyathome View Post
Excrab How do you get below the 100í with an IMC/IR(R)?
FI1ngfrog beat me to it, but the only restriction for the IR(r) is that you must have 1500 metres met visibility at the airfield (not runway visual range) for take off and landing. Legally there is nothing to stop you from descending down to the published ILS MDA or MDH which for Glasgow runway 23 would be 200 ft plus pressure error correction (normally 250ft for a light aircraft). at that point, provided you have visual reference which can just be the approach lights shining through the cloud you can continue below decision height to land, even if you canít see the runway surface at that point and you are still in cloud. Generally even at cat 1 minimum visibility of 550 metres you could expect to see the approach and touchdown zone lights at 250 feet unless the cloud is exceptionally dense, so with 1500 metres visibility you will almost certainly see them.

I am not saying that it is a good idea, especially in a single engine aircraft, whatever ratings you hold, but my post was about what you are legally allowed to do with the IMC rating / IRR, if you are in current practise. This is what an IMC rating holder is allowed to do, so it should be the standard to which they are tested, the requirements for the ILS (half scale deflection localiser and glide slope and never below DH to commence the go around) is the same as for the IR, the only relaxation to the standards are in speed and heading holding. I am not saying that the average club pilot in a Cessna 150 can do this a year after their course, but someone building hours for a CPL who has been trained properly and is keeping in practise should be able to in a properly equipped aircraft, and that was the basis of the original question.

If youíre not familiar with operating in these conditions and want to see what it is like then I would imagine that You Tube would be a good place to start.
excrab is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 15:19
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 310
Generally the 27 EU countries can't understand how you can complete the IMC in only 15 hours. The EASA course requires 50 hours for single engine and 55 hours for a multi-engine rating. The rest of the world requires 40 hours minimum training. One should always bear in mind that the minimum hours for all courses are just that. I agree with excrab that we should train to the published minima but note: the test only requires a descent to the recommended IMCr minima which is that published plus 200 ft but 500 ft for a precision and 600 ft for a non-precision approach.

The differences in the IMC from the IR course are substantial. The IR requires airways flight training and for all the instrument approaches that can be expected at an aerodrome; ILS, Localiser only, GPS derived approaches and of course the ubiquitous NDB.

The IMC rating does not require airways and the pilot is not required to cover more than one navigation aid including for the approach let down. Only two approaches are required and only one need to be pilot interpreted. Normally an SRA/PAR will be signed off during training with the pilot interpreted approach being part of the test. I have taught a number of NDB only courses including the let down and VOR only courses using a localiser approach for the test. Where the student wishes to cover all the aids normally found in light aircraft: VOR/ILS, NDB and DME I would normally expect the course to require at least 25 hours. Approved twin channel GPS units are being installed in large numbers and additional hours will be required to cover these.

The reason for EASA increasing the minimum hours of the respected world wide ICAO 40 hour IR course is beyond me. ICAO also allow credit from previous instrument training. The UK used to credit 10 hours of the IMC rating toward the 40. I understand that the FAA are even more generous.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 25th Oct 2020 at 17:25.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 19:07
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The middle
Posts: 432
FI1ngfrog

Where does it state that the test only requires a let down to the IMCr minima that you give. The U.K. examiners hand book says that the instrument approach should be a pilot interpreted approach to DA or MDA, and the examiners report section 4.1 says “let down and approach to DH/MDH using pilot interpreted approach”.

The AIP recommends that the holder of an IMCr or IRR should add 200 feet to DH or MDH with an absolute minimum of 500 feet for a precision approach or 600 feet for a non precision approach, but this is only a recommendation, not a legal requirement. I can’t find anything written to say that there is any additional legal restriction to the use of an IRR or IMCr apart from not being allowed to enter class A airspace or take off with a flight visibility below cloud of less than 1500m. Am I missing something ?
excrab is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 23:52
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 310
Standards Document 25, Version 2 (2008)

3.5.2 para. (f)

3.6.4 Test Exercise – Instrument Let-Down and Approach

Note: that this section states that the AIP recommendations for IMC pilots is to be used.

I'm not aware that the above document has ever been superseded. It makes sense to me that where there is a recommended minima then it should be applied on a test.The Examiners Handbook cannot overall.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2020, 00:01
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Temporarily Unsure!
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by excrab View Post
FI1ngfrog beat me to it, but the only restriction for the IR(r) is that you must have 1500 metres met visibility at the airfield (not runway visual range) for take off and landing. Legally there is nothing to stop you from descending down to the published ILS MDA or MDH which for Glasgow runway 23 would be 200 ft plus pressure error correction (normally 250ft for a light aircraft). at that point, provided you have visual reference which can just be the approach lights shining through the cloud you can continue below decision height to land, even if you canít see the runway surface at that point and you are still in cloud. Generally even at cat 1 minimum visibility of 550 metres you could expect to see the approach and touchdown zone lights at 250 feet unless the cloud is exceptionally dense, so with 1500 metres visibility you will almost certainly see them.

I am not saying that it is a good idea, especially in a single engine aircraft, whatever ratings you hold, but my post was about what you are legally allowed to do with the IMC rating / IRR, if you are in current practise. This is what an IMC rating holder is allowed to do, so it should be the standard to which they are tested, the requirements for the ILS (half scale deflection localiser and glide slope and never below DH to commence the go around) is the same as for the IR, the only relaxation to the standards are in speed and heading holding. I am not saying that the average club pilot in a Cessna 150 can do this a year after their course, but someone building hours for a CPL who has been trained properly and is keeping in practise should be able to in a properly equipped aircraft, and that was the basis of the original question.

If youíre not familiar with operating in these conditions and want to see what it is like then I would imagine that You Tube would be a good place to start.
Thanks. Fully familiar and current with it.
rarelyathome is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.