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IR and IR(R)

Old 26th Oct 2020, 12:06
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The middle
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
Standards Document 25, Version 2 (2008)

3.5.2 para. (f)

3.6.4 Test Exercise – Instrument Let-Down and Approach

Note: that this section states that the AIP recommendations for IMC pilots is to be used.

I'm not aware that the above document has ever been superseded. It makes sense to me that where there is a recommended minima then it should be applied on a test.The Examiners Handbook cannot overall.
Thank you for the reference, Fl1ingfrog.
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 14:12
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post

The reason for EASA increasing the minimum hours of the respected world wide ICAO 40 hour IR course is beyond me. ICAO also allow credit from previous instrument training. The UK used to credit 10 hours of the IMC rating toward the 40. I understand that the FAA are even more generous.
I went IMCR --> FAA IR --> EASA IR; FAA basically were happy to count all my prior instruction and instrument flying towards the minimum, and only required that I pass the (extremely strenuous) checkride. EASA, actually, were also happy with my total IFR hours and that I held a current ICAO IR, so was able to simply present for a Skill Test (which I did, with a carefully structured 4˝hrs sim time and 7˝hrs training time shortly before until I and an instructor were both happy I was ready for it).

M'self, I'd abolish all minimum hours for every licence tomorrow, and load everything onto the skills tests. FAA is closer to that than EASA / CAA, but equally the USA now mandates 1500hrs to get an airline job.

People with a lot of hours are entitled to feel proud of that, especially if we flew them with an attitude of learning. But we're all of us only as good as our last flight, and only as provably good as our last skill test or checkride. And since that is the case, the requirement for minimum hours for almost any test just seems totally absurd to me. A sign-off as ready for test / minimum course content covered, and a test pass, should be everything.

(This goes both ways, minimum hours requirements leave some people believing that they are entitled to complete in those hours. Well, maybe some people will, many won't - and this does raise false expectations.)

G
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 12:29
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer View Post
M'self, I'd abolish all minimum hours for every licence tomorrow, and load everything onto the skills tests. FAA is closer to that than EASA / CAA, but equally the USA now mandates 1500hrs to get an airline job.

People with a lot of hours are entitled to feel proud of that, especially if we flew them with an attitude of learning. But we're all of us only as good as our last flight, and only as provably good as our last skill test or checkride. And since that is the case, the requirement for minimum hours for almost any test just seems totally absurd to me. A sign-off as ready for test / minimum course content covered, and a test pass, should be everything.

(This goes both ways, minimum hours requirements leave some people believing that they are entitled to complete in those hours. Well, maybe some people will, many won't - and this does raise false expectations.)

G
Fully agreed, Genghis!

I have always taken an adverse view of the aviation world's focus on hours, i.e. the amount of time you have spent doing something. Which other activity/profession does this, to this extent? Of much more relevance (one could say the only relevance) is one's competence - assessed by test.
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 12:49
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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As to the substance of the OP's question, the answer (as so often) is "it depends".

You mentioned the ultimate goal (CPL/IR...), however 3 key questions are: over what elapsed time period; how much time do you intend to dedicate to this over that elapsed time period; and how much money are you willing & able to commit to it?

If you want to achieve the ultimate goal quickly and money is no object, forget the IMC/IR(R) - it's a waste of time. If work/family/money/... matters dictate that this is going to be a long journey, then the IR(R) is a great stopping point along the way, allowing you to taste IFR flight and build up experience - and you got some great tips above on how to make this optimally beneficial.

Other tip from experience: be wary of those telling you "do it this way" / "don't do it this way" - blanket advice like this is rarely helpful, and (as other have said) might indicate the prejudices and/or economic incentives of the "advisor"... Cui bono?
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 19:07
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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If you want to achieve the ultimate goal quickly and money is no object, forget the IMC/IR(R) - it's a waste of time.
There is no such thing as a quick IR. Too many IR schools, to make it harder to achieve, operate Monday to Friday and keep weekends sacrosanct which is unhelpful. The very little spare time very busy people have is usually at weekends. There may not be a IR school near where you live, because of an elite attitude by the NAAs, nor an exam centre closeby. The commitment to achieving an IR is disproportional to the need for too many people.

If you do not need to transit class A airspace and particularly if your flying is confined to the UK airspace (including the Channel Islands, I.O.M and Northern Irelancd) then the IR has littler advantage. The IMC can be taught and tested at the local flying club 7 days a week as can the written examination. The skill test is also likely to be accessible locally. The safety record of the IMC rating speaks for itself. If it suits your purpose then it is all you need.

Decades ago the U.S. realised that maintaining a IR as an elite rating was a bar to safety. People continued to die in IMC related accidents. The U.S. IR nowadays is an accessible rating to all from when the onset of the PPL is gained. The candidate can train for the IR at their local club arranged within their availability. The U.S.IR process is designed to be accessible to all and because of this the US has an exemplary IMC safety record.
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Old 11th Nov 2020, 13:05
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
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FF you make some good points, however you ignored what the OP said: "If I intend on hour building and getting my CPL, IR and ME" - i.e. for her, the IR(R) is only ever going to be a stopping-off point
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Old 11th Nov 2020, 15:11
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
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however you ignored what the OP said
No I didn't that part was dealt with earlier in this thread.

for her, the IR(R) is only ever going to be a stopping-off point
This was also discussed earlier. However PPRuNe is often asked: "I have a multi-crew only IR, how do I get an IMC rating". The IMC is issued for life and so always available if required. Another example of how can we make the IR difficult.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 19:28
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NA
Posts: 43
My advice may be a bit dated, but I would thoroughly recommend getting the IMC/IRR as part of your aviation training journey.

”When I were a lad...”: the 700-hour route to the CPL had a myriad of sub-requirements, including night & instrument time. The FAA still has similar rules, plus additional IFR cross-country requirements. Many contemporaries reached the “magic 700” target, only to find they were short on sub-totals. Keep a track of all these targets, as you progress towards an ATPL. An IMC rating will allow you to knock many of these off your “to do” list before it becomes critical.

As you will undoubtedly have to pay for some of your flying, while hour-building, get the rating and fly trips that will challenge and develop you as a pilot. This may well be more fun too!

Get a good instructor, and make good use of a simulator. Enjoy.
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