NPPL (SSEP) - LAPL // Brexit
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NPPL (SSEP) - LAPL // Brexit
Hello, long time viewing PPRuNe but this is my first post.
Looking for brief advice and hopefully to find someone in a similar situation to me.
I have an expired SSEP on a UK issued NPPL, which was issued prior to the 7th of April 2018. My medium term objective is to get this converted to a full PPL (UK Issued) but for now the LAPL will do (just to get flying again).
I am familiar with the conversion process on the CAA's website.
However, does anyone have any feeling / inside knowledge on how the LAPL will be viewed post Brexit on the 31st of December?
I would like to avoid having to lose my LAPL soon after it being converted!
Thanks in advance.
Looking for brief advice and hopefully to find someone in a similar situation to me.
I have an expired SSEP on a UK issued NPPL, which was issued prior to the 7th of April 2018. My medium term objective is to get this converted to a full PPL (UK Issued) but for now the LAPL will do (just to get flying again).
I am familiar with the conversion process on the CAA's website.
However, does anyone have any feeling / inside knowledge on how the LAPL will be viewed post Brexit on the 31st of December?
I would like to avoid having to lose my LAPL soon after it being converted!
Thanks in advance.
Nobody knows yet.
I would suggest simply revalidating your NPPL SSEA rating - which will be instruction as required than a proficiency check with an examiner, then see what the position is next year once we've left EASA and new rules are published.
G
I would suggest simply revalidating your NPPL SSEA rating - which will be instruction as required than a proficiency check with an examiner, then see what the position is next year once we've left EASA and new rules are published.
G
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Thanks Genghis, appreciate the honesty.
Only issue being that I am under the impression that NPPL SSEA holders are unable to fly EASA aircraft currently (C172/PA28) so I would be unable to take pax, unless I have misunderstood this?
Only issue being that I am under the impression that NPPL SSEA holders are unable to fly EASA aircraft currently (C172/PA28) so I would be unable to take pax, unless I have misunderstood this?
The following is copied from the NPPL website:
QCan I upgrade to a EASA LAPL or PPL?
A You can convert a NPPL which was issued before 8th April 2018 directly to an EASA PART-FCL LAPL (A) by submitting an application to the UK CAA. In order to convert to a PPL further training is required. Full details of agreed conversion requirements are contained in CAP 804, Section 4, Part P. However, a NPPL issued after 8th April 2018 cannot be upgraded. It may be possible to use some of the experience gained towards the minimum hours requirements.
The simple pathway then is to renew your lapsed SSEA, undertake a LAPL medical and then complete the CAA application form for the issue of a LAPL (A) together with the fee but with no additional training, test or exam. You will then have both a NPPL and a LAPL(A). After all this you are free to consider the conversion to a full PPL. The LAPL will continue for some time (years) before changes if any come about. The LAPL is a UK licence. There cannot be a likely purpose for the UK to withdraw it but it may be replaced - free of charge (!). The international benefits are not within the scope of the UK CAA because the licence is sub ICAO. EASA may or may not continue to honour the built in EU privileges.
Its a waste of time pontificating on what is going to happen from January 1st. It seems that the UK CAA has an agenda that they do not wish to share; however the LAPL dilemma will be well down on their list to resolve. In this particular case there is no point in waiting, if that is what you want then get on with it in my view, because at the moment it couldn't be simpler.
QCan I upgrade to a EASA LAPL or PPL?
A You can convert a NPPL which was issued before 8th April 2018 directly to an EASA PART-FCL LAPL (A) by submitting an application to the UK CAA. In order to convert to a PPL further training is required. Full details of agreed conversion requirements are contained in CAP 804, Section 4, Part P. However, a NPPL issued after 8th April 2018 cannot be upgraded. It may be possible to use some of the experience gained towards the minimum hours requirements.
The simple pathway then is to renew your lapsed SSEA, undertake a LAPL medical and then complete the CAA application form for the issue of a LAPL (A) together with the fee but with no additional training, test or exam. You will then have both a NPPL and a LAPL(A). After all this you are free to consider the conversion to a full PPL. The LAPL will continue for some time (years) before changes if any come about. The LAPL is a UK licence. There cannot be a likely purpose for the UK to withdraw it but it may be replaced - free of charge (!). The international benefits are not within the scope of the UK CAA because the licence is sub ICAO. EASA may or may not continue to honour the built in EU privileges.
Its a waste of time pontificating on what is going to happen from January 1st. It seems that the UK CAA has an agenda that they do not wish to share; however the LAPL dilemma will be well down on their list to resolve. In this particular case there is no point in waiting, if that is what you want then get on with it in my view, because at the moment it couldn't be simpler.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 22nd Oct 2020 at 19:35.
No, it is not a mistake.
A similar confusion exists with the UK passport. Some argued that because the passport had the words "European Union" printed on the cover then it was an EU passport and that it could not be used after the UK had left the union. At various meetings in France hosted by the British Embassy the officials were at pain to emphasise, over and over, that what is printed on the cover has no legal standing. That which is printed on the inside pages does and on the inside pages of a UK passport there is no mention of the EU, only the United Kingdom.
On the cover of UK pilot licenses the words "European Union" and "issued in accordance with Part-FCL" are printed. The main title is the "United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority". There is no reference to the European Union on the inside pages of the UK issued pilot licences. On the UK licenses issued prior to EASA the words on the cover are "Issued in accordance with ICAO standards", so a similar convention only.
A similar confusion exists with the UK passport. Some argued that because the passport had the words "European Union" printed on the cover then it was an EU passport and that it could not be used after the UK had left the union. At various meetings in France hosted by the British Embassy the officials were at pain to emphasise, over and over, that what is printed on the cover has no legal standing. That which is printed on the inside pages does and on the inside pages of a UK passport there is no mention of the EU, only the United Kingdom.
On the cover of UK pilot licenses the words "European Union" and "issued in accordance with Part-FCL" are printed. The main title is the "United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority". There is no reference to the European Union on the inside pages of the UK issued pilot licences. On the UK licenses issued prior to EASA the words on the cover are "Issued in accordance with ICAO standards", so a similar convention only.
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No, it is not a mistake.
A similar confusion exists with the UK passport. Some argued that because the passport had the words "European Union" printed on the cover then it was an EU passport and that it could not be used after the UK had left the union. At various meetings in France hosted by the British Embassy the officials were at pain to emphasise, over and over, that what is printed on the cover has no legal standing. That which is printed on the inside pages does and on the inside pages of a UK passport there is no mention of the EU, only the United Kingdom.
On the cover of UK pilot licenses the words "European Union" and "issued in accordance with Part-FCL" are printed. The main title is the "United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority". There is no reference to the European Union on the inside pages of the UK issued pilot licences. On the UK licenses issued prior to EASA the words on the cover are "Issued in accordance with ICAO standards", so a similar convention only.
A similar confusion exists with the UK passport. Some argued that because the passport had the words "European Union" printed on the cover then it was an EU passport and that it could not be used after the UK had left the union. At various meetings in France hosted by the British Embassy the officials were at pain to emphasise, over and over, that what is printed on the cover has no legal standing. That which is printed on the inside pages does and on the inside pages of a UK passport there is no mention of the EU, only the United Kingdom.
On the cover of UK pilot licenses the words "European Union" and "issued in accordance with Part-FCL" are printed. The main title is the "United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority". There is no reference to the European Union on the inside pages of the UK issued pilot licences. On the UK licenses issued prior to EASA the words on the cover are "Issued in accordance with ICAO standards", so a similar convention only.
the LAPL exists under EU law. For it to be valid next year it will need validating under the U.K. ANO and will still be a sub ICAO licence. It will need a mutual agreement for it to work outside the U.K.
you are also confusing EU membership and EASA membership. We can remain a member of EASA without being a member of the EU if our political leaders were not so stupid. It just requires us to sign up to some common laws and embed them in our own ANO.
Switzerland and Norway are both EASA members.....
the LAPL exists under EU law. For it to be valid next year it will need validating under the U.K. ANO and will still be a sub ICAO licence. It will need a mutual agreement for it to work outside the U.K.
Parliament recently passed legislation to revise all such statutes with the main purpose of removing all reverence to the EU (including by default EASA). This was made controversial for different reasons but was passed. Norway is a member of the EEA and contributes financially towards the EU and like Switzerland has adopted much of the EU legislation by various agreements.
you are also confusing EU membership and EASA membership.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 23rd Oct 2020 at 12:54.
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The LAPL will continue to exist next year under UK Part FCL, the UK law which takes over from EU law. Whether the UK issued LAPL is recognised by EASA Member States depends on each State, as they are not obliged to accept a sub ICAO licence. However it would be perverse to fail to recognise a licence issued under exactly the same regulations which they themselves use. The ANO will remain separate legislation.
And there, for the UK LAPL holder lies the dilemma.
For many if not most UK PPLs the flying is confined to the UK airspace in VFR and in aeroplanes below 2 metric tonnes. The introduction of the JAA and the rigid JARs was unpopular. So, the NPPL was created as a remedy. Not being able to add an IMCr is a small price to pay against the benefit of the reduced licence currency and the simple medical requirements of the sub-ICAO NPPL.
The hammer blow following the takeover of EASA was that NPPL holders, and without any reasonable logic whatsoever, would not be permitted to continue to fly aircraft designated "EASA aeroplanes"; the same aeroplanes many will have been flying for years. However, as if they didn't know, the LAPL had been created no doubt in anticipation. This licence, without any additional training requirement over the NPPL, would magically permit the flying of EASA aeroplanes. However, with the sweetener that the LAPL is valid throughout europe.
So large numbers were persuaded to opt for the LAPL, but now after only a few short years there is the strong possibility that the UK LAPL may be confined to UK airspace only. If this happens the advantages over the NPPL will be zero, but with the more stringent and expensive medical requirement.
Should the EU continue to validate the LAPL for flight within the EU airspace they may not permit the licence to be used without formality to fly EU member states registered aeroplanes as now. At this late stage we should not be guessing.
For many if not most UK PPLs the flying is confined to the UK airspace in VFR and in aeroplanes below 2 metric tonnes. The introduction of the JAA and the rigid JARs was unpopular. So, the NPPL was created as a remedy. Not being able to add an IMCr is a small price to pay against the benefit of the reduced licence currency and the simple medical requirements of the sub-ICAO NPPL.
The hammer blow following the takeover of EASA was that NPPL holders, and without any reasonable logic whatsoever, would not be permitted to continue to fly aircraft designated "EASA aeroplanes"; the same aeroplanes many will have been flying for years. However, as if they didn't know, the LAPL had been created no doubt in anticipation. This licence, without any additional training requirement over the NPPL, would magically permit the flying of EASA aeroplanes. However, with the sweetener that the LAPL is valid throughout europe.
So large numbers were persuaded to opt for the LAPL, but now after only a few short years there is the strong possibility that the UK LAPL may be confined to UK airspace only. If this happens the advantages over the NPPL will be zero, but with the more stringent and expensive medical requirement.
Should the EU continue to validate the LAPL for flight within the EU airspace they may not permit the licence to be used without formality to fly EU member states registered aeroplanes as now. At this late stage we should not be guessing.
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Hi All,
Following the advice on this forum and further research I now hold both a LAPL (SEP) and NPPL (SSEA). Both are not current but I been out flying and have my reval test booked next week for my LAPL.
A couple questions that could not be answered by the school I am renting from, that may or may not have answers to, are as follows:
1. Can an SSEA rating be signed off on completion of a LAPL proficiency check (both have similar if not identical requirements)?
2. We do not yet know the NPPL (SSEA) or LAPL (SEP) route to what will now be the full fat UK PPL, unless I missed something on the CAA webinars/brexit microsite?
Any insight to the above would be appreciated, thank you ladies and gents!
Following the advice on this forum and further research I now hold both a LAPL (SEP) and NPPL (SSEA). Both are not current but I been out flying and have my reval test booked next week for my LAPL.
A couple questions that could not be answered by the school I am renting from, that may or may not have answers to, are as follows:
1. Can an SSEA rating be signed off on completion of a LAPL proficiency check (both have similar if not identical requirements)?
2. We do not yet know the NPPL (SSEA) or LAPL (SEP) route to what will now be the full fat UK PPL, unless I missed something on the CAA webinars/brexit microsite?
Any insight to the above would be appreciated, thank you ladies and gents!
1. Can an SSEA rating be signed off on completion of a LAPL proficiency check (both have similar if not identical requirements)?
2. We do not yet know the NPPL (SSEA) or LAPL (SEP) route to what will now be the full fat UK PPL
The process of adopting the EU regulation into UK Law is more likeley to be a shot in the foot than a panacia. The LAPL will not be acceptable by the EU so is a rather pointless licence in the UK but converting the NPPL to a PPL is still going to be subject to the rules they are adopting on 31st December.
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UK NPPL SSEA
Hello all, I have an NPPL SSEA which I gained in November 2019. The aircraft I did all my training on was a Cessna C152 However that is classed EASA aircraft is it still ok for me to fly this aircraft now we are no longer in the EU. It seem a bit crazy that all my training was completed flying a Cessna C152 and now I'm not allowed to fly one. Can anyone clarify this for me it would be greatly appreciated
Last edited by J.A.F.O.; 16th May 2021 at 08:58.
The answer to the question is not currently a simple yes/no one. I have edited my original answer so as to avoid any confusion. Thanks for pointing out ORS1471 which gives the full answer.
