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NPPL (SSEP) - LAPL // Brexit

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NPPL (SSEP) - LAPL // Brexit

Old 22nd Oct 2020, 14:41
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NPPL (SSEP) - LAPL // Brexit

Hello, long time viewing PPRuNe but this is my first post.

Looking for brief advice and hopefully to find someone in a similar situation to me.

I have an expired SSEP on a UK issued NPPL, which was issued prior to the 7th of April 2018. My medium term objective is to get this converted to a full PPL (UK Issued) but for now the LAPL will do (just to get flying again).

I am familiar with the conversion process on the CAA's website.

However, does anyone have any feeling / inside knowledge on how the LAPL will be viewed post Brexit on the 31st of December?

I would like to avoid having to lose my LAPL soon after it being converted!

Thanks in advance.
YankeePA38 is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 16:06
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Nobody knows yet.

I would suggest simply revalidating your NPPL SSEA rating - which will be instruction as required than a proficiency check with an examiner, then see what the position is next year once we've left EASA and new rules are published.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 16:20
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Thanks Genghis, appreciate the honesty.

Only issue being that I am under the impression that NPPL SSEA holders are unable to fly EASA aircraft currently (C172/PA28) so I would be unable to take pax, unless I have misunderstood this?
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 20:02
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The following is copied from the NPPL website:

QCan I upgrade to a EASA LAPL or PPL?
A You can convert a NPPL which was issued before 8th April 2018 directly to an EASA PART-FCL LAPL (A) by submitting an application to the UK CAA. In order to convert to a PPL further training is required. Full details of agreed conversion requirements are contained in CAP 804, Section 4, Part P. However, a NPPL issued after
8th April 2018 cannot be upgraded. It may be possible to use some of the experience gained towards the minimum hours requirements.

The simple pathway then is to renew your lapsed SSEA, undertake a LAPL medical and then complete the CAA application form for the issue of a LAPL (A) together with the fee but with no additional training, test or exam. You will then have both a NPPL and a LAPL(A). After all this you are free to consider the conversion to a full PPL. The LAPL will continue for some time (years) before changes if any come about. The LAPL is a UK licence. There cannot be a likely purpose for the UK to withdraw it but it may be replaced - free of charge (!). The international benefits are not within the scope of the UK CAA because the licence is sub ICAO. EASA may or may not continue to honour the built in EU privileges.

Its a waste of time pontificating on what is going to happen from January 1st. It seems that the UK CAA has an agenda that they do not wish to share; however the LAPL dilemma will be well down on their list to resolve. In this particular case there is no point in waiting, if that is what you want then get on with it in my view, because at the moment it couldn't be simpler.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 22nd Oct 2020 at 20:35.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 20:41
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."The LAPL is a UK licence."
Was that a misprint?
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2020, 21:26
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No, it is not a mistake.

A similar confusion exists with the UK passport. Some argued that because the passport had the words "European Union" printed on the cover then it was an EU passport and that it could not be used after the UK had left the union. At various meetings in France hosted by the British Embassy the officials were at pain to emphasise, over and over, that what is printed on the cover has no legal standing. That which is printed on the inside pages does and on the inside pages of a UK passport there is no mention of the EU, only the United Kingdom.

On the cover of UK pilot licenses the words "European Union" and "issued in accordance with Part-FCL" are printed. The main title is the "United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority". There is no reference to the European Union on the inside pages of the UK issued pilot licences. On the UK licenses issued prior to EASA the words on the cover are "Issued in accordance with ICAO standards", so a similar convention only.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 09:16
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
No, it is not a mistake.

A similar confusion exists with the UK passport. Some argued that because the passport had the words "European Union" printed on the cover then it was an EU passport and that it could not be used after the UK had left the union. At various meetings in France hosted by the British Embassy the officials were at pain to emphasise, over and over, that what is printed on the cover has no legal standing. That which is printed on the inside pages does and on the inside pages of a UK passport there is no mention of the EU, only the United Kingdom.

On the cover of UK pilot licenses the words "European Union" and "issued in accordance with Part-FCL" are printed. The main title is the "United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority". There is no reference to the European Union on the inside pages of the UK issued pilot licences. On the UK licenses issued prior to EASA the words on the cover are "Issued in accordance with ICAO standards", so a similar convention only.
Jesus..... you really need to go and look up the law......... a LAPL a sub ICAO licence for starters as is an NPPL.

the LAPL exists under EU law. For it to be valid next year it will need validating under the U.K. ANO and will still be a sub ICAO licence. It will need a mutual agreement for it to work outside the U.K.

you are also confusing EU membership and EASA membership. We can remain a member of EASA without being a member of the EU if our political leaders were not so stupid. It just requires us to sign up to some common laws and embed them in our own ANO.

Switzerland and Norway are both EASA members.....
S-Works is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 09:38
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He didn't say it was ICAO compliant !
MrAverage is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 13:13
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the LAPL exists under EU law. For it to be valid next year it will need validating under the U.K. ANO and will still be a sub ICAO licence. It will need a mutual agreement for it to work outside the U.K.
European regulations [the correct term] is not law until they are adopted by each individual state. The UK parliament does this by statute which enables it to have effect without requiring a long protracted parliamentary procedure. The LAPL together with all other EU regulation and licences have become law in the UK. All this leaves the individual and an organisation to continuously refer to both the EU regulation and the ANO for detail.

Parliament recently passed legislation to revise all such statutes with the main purpose of removing all reverence to the EU (including by default EASA). This was made controversial for different reasons but was passed. Norway is a member of the EEA and contributes financially towards the EU and like Switzerland has adopted much of the EU legislation by various agreements.

you are also confusing EU membership and EASA membership.
EASA is an agency of the EU. All EASA regulation is first developed through the EU Commision before being passed or rejected by the EU Parliament.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 23rd Oct 2020 at 13:54.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 13:29
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The LAPL will continue to exist next year under UK Part FCL, the UK law which takes over from EU law. Whether the UK issued LAPL is recognised by EASA Member States depends on each State, as they are not obliged to accept a sub ICAO licence. However it would be perverse to fail to recognise a licence issued under exactly the same regulations which they themselves use. The ANO will remain separate legislation.
topoverhaul is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 21:48
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And there, for the UK LAPL holder lies the dilemma.

For many if not most UK PPLs the flying is confined to the UK airspace in VFR and in aeroplanes below 2 metric tonnes. The introduction of the JAA and the rigid JARs was unpopular. So, the NPPL was created as a remedy. Not being able to add an IMCr is a small price to pay against the benefit of the reduced licence currency and the simple medical requirements of the sub-ICAO NPPL.

The hammer blow following the takeover of EASA was that NPPL holders, and without any reasonable logic whatsoever, would not be permitted to continue to fly aircraft designated "EASA aeroplanes"; the same aeroplanes many will have been flying for years. However, as if they didn't know, the LAPL had been created no doubt in anticipation. This licence, without any additional training requirement over the NPPL, would magically permit the flying of EASA aeroplanes. However, with the sweetener that the LAPL is valid throughout europe.

So large numbers were persuaded to opt for the LAPL, but now after only a few short years there is the strong possibility that the UK LAPL may be confined to UK airspace only. If this happens the advantages over the NPPL will be zero, but with the more stringent and expensive medical requirement.

Should the EU continue to validate the LAPL for flight within the EU airspace they may not permit the licence to be used without formality to fly EU member states registered aeroplanes as now. At this late stage we should not be guessing.
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