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Correct Log Book Entry ?

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Correct Log Book Entry ?

Old 5th Jun 2020, 12:06
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Correct Log Book Entry ?

Hi,

I understand that all dual training for the PPL is recorded as P/UT in the "Designation" column in the log book. (I take this to mean the logbook holders Operating Capacity for the flight)
However, I am unsure if solo flying (carried out as part of the PPL training 10hrs Solo requirement) is also still logged as P/UT or P1 ? (or something else ??)

While we are on the subject, when you carry out your bi-annual revalidation training, how should this be logged.... P/UT or P1US ??

Any help to clarify this would be appreciated, thanks.

Thanks
Andy
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 16:54
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Solo flying can only be PIC as you are not recieving training and are in command of the aircraft.
There is no such thing as bi-annual revalidation training however; if you mean the dual training flight that is required for revalidation by experience then to qualify as instruction, it can only be logged as PUT or dual
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 22:14
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Thanks, so should the solo flying be written as "P1" or "PIC" in the "Designation" box in the logbook ?
And.... how should the PPL skills test be recorded, P1S or still P/UT ?

Just looking through my logbook..... when I did my Tailwheel conversion, the first 2 hours training with the instructor were logged as "P/UT".
I then flew 15 minutes solo (logged as P1).
The training then concluded with a further 3 hours dual training, which I was told to log as "P1/S", should this really have been logged as P/UT ?

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Old 6th Jun 2020, 12:11
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Training is always P/UT. P1/S can only be logged for a successful test (GFT, IR etc) rather than training. As I doubt there is an official test for a tailwheel conversion I'd imagine it should have been P/UT all the way through.
Certainly 3 hrs P1/S is excessive. Very. But does it really matter?
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 15:53
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Thanks.
The only reason it matters (and I am still kicking myself for this)… I managed to lose my original logbook (I think it was dropped between the club house and the carp ?), so I am now rewriting a "duplicate" logbook (all 745 flights worth) from an electronic copy I have on my PC.
I always suspected some of my instructors were trying to help me gain increased P1 time by telling me to log as P1/S in place of P/UT, but your right it really doesn't matter for me so I want to make sure it is logged correctly now.
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 20:42
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Originally Posted by Andrew2487 View Post
Thanks, so should the solo flying be written as "P1" or "PIC" in the "Designation" box in the logbook ?
And.... how should the PPL skills test be recorded, P1S or still P/UT ?

Just looking through my logbook..... when I did my Tailwheel conversion, the first 2 hours training with the instructor were logged as "P/UT".
I then flew 15 minutes solo (logged as P1).
The training then concluded with a further 3 hours dual training, which I was told to log as "P1/S", should this really have been logged as P/UT ?
there is no solo training for differences training including Tailwheel. You do the training, get the logbook endorsement and off you go.......

P1/S is only ever used in a SPA for a skill test.

you were being mugged off for nom required dual training. The instructor should not have left the aircraft until you were signed off.....
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Old 10th Jun 2020, 22:46
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
P1/S can only be logged for a successful test (GFT, IR etc) rather than training.
EASA doesn't say so. Even more, when I did my CPL and IR skill test in Iceland it stated clearly by their CAA that the skill test is logged always dual, regardless if successfull or not.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 00:21
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EASA doesn't say so.
Quite right but, because of that, the UK CAA has issued an ALT MOC which appears in CAP 804 Section 1 Part E Para 9 J
Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a EASA or CAA Authorised Examiner (other than case K.)

PICUS for successful Test P/UT for unsuccessful test (including partial pass) Enter time in ‘P1’ column and have it certified by aircraft commander. Enter time in ‘Dual’ column

Last edited by Whopity; 11th Jun 2020 at 00:38.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 08:55
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Originally Posted by Whopity View Post
Quite right but, because of that, the UK CAA has issued an ALT MOC which appears in CAP 804 Section 1 Part E Para 9 J
True, but it is valid then only for UK.
And PICUS is more for multi pilot aircraft concept rather than single pilot.

Last edited by maximus610; 11th Jun 2020 at 13:59.
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Old 11th Jun 2020, 09:27
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How are people getting confused by this? It should be explained on day one.

Every single pilot aircraft has to have a P1/PIC (it's the same thing) and under EASA it's simple:

If you're on your own then it's you.
If you're carrying passengers it's still you.
If you're receiving instruction then it's the FI

If there's an FI sat next to you, then you're P/UT

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Old 11th Jun 2020, 12:31
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With the way that the day to day operations of private GA is usually conducted it is not surprising that there is confusion. If you are the pilot in command then yes you log PIC or if you wish P1, it doesn't matter which you chose because it is only semantics, P1 uses less ink. You are only a pilot under training where the law requires this.

On any skill test for the issue/renewal of a licence or rating then you are demonstrating your ability to be the PIC for the particular circumstances, but you are being supervised by the examiner. So, you log PI supervised P1/s or PICs as you prefer. The examiner may direct the flight, take control or terminate the test at any point so they are ultimately in command. If you fail the test then you have not succeeded in being the pilot in command in the circumstances so PUT. For all simple types the examiner must always be an instructor also allowing you to log PUT. There is only a requirement to log in a particular way when operating in accordance with the requirements of the regulations.

Conversion instruction onto simple single engine piston types, by example, are not required by regulation, in most cases, although most sensible people considerer it to be wise to do. Such conversions may be part of a group ownership agreement and given by a group member. The person selling the aeroplane may offer this as part of the sale deal. There are many single seat types on which dual instruction cannot take place. None of these examples as with many others require the involvement of an instructor. Club checks such as are routine 'currency checks are stipulated by the club but not by the law . They will usually nominate an instructor to supervise the conversion or the club currency check. Young instructors in particular often direct the pilot to log PUT so they can log themselves P1, this being part of their hour building needs. For me, the pilot should log P1/PIC on these flights. There is no pass or fail or required training to log. It is a deal that you make with the owner prior to whether the owner will let you fly their aeroplane.

So it is not the case that if an instructor is in the aeroplane you must log PUT.

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Old 11th Jun 2020, 23:16
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"If there's an FI sat next to you, then you're P/UT"
An instructor can be a passenger. There are many syndicates including an instructor, who might instruct a new member, but otherwise is the same as anyone else.
I have logged P1 with an instructor Group member, and Pu/t with the same instructor on a biennial.
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Old 12th Jun 2020, 01:29
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Originally Posted by Maoraigh1 View Post
An instructor can be a passenger.
Correct. But only if you hold a licence, not in the context of PPL training. Perhaps "Instructor acting as an instructor" would be a better turn of phrase.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 22:40
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"If there's an FI sat next to you, then you're P/UT"
But if the FI is acting in the capacity of an Examiner no instruction is being given and the candidate is not receiving instruction. If the candidate fails to demonstrate the ability to operate as PIC then they will fail the test/check so it is perfectly reasonable to enter the pilot's operating capacity which is PIC under supervision.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 22:50
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Originally Posted by Whopity View Post
But if the FI is acting in the capacity of an Examiner no instruction is being given and the candidate is not receiving instruction. If the candidate fails to demonstrate the ability to operate as PIC then they will fail the test/check so it is perfectly reasonable to enter the pilot's operating capacity which is PIC under supervision.
? If they fail the test it is P/UT, if they pass it is P1(S)
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 22:59
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Correct.
A further case is two FIs on board such as an FI test! Or an Examiner AoC with or without a real candidate. I have flown with an FI in the right seat being tested by a FIE in the left seat whilst a CAA FE sits in the back passenger seat and he is PIC! In this case Instruction is being given by the FI to the FIE but he is not a pilot under training! Too much for EASA to even contemplate.

Last edited by Whopity; 29th Jun 2020 at 13:03.
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