Calling the tower or a/g frequency even when flying above their airspace
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Calling the tower or a/g frequency even when flying above their airspace
I just wanted to get an idea from other flyers regarding this. There are some people who I fly with who would quite happily overfly certain aerodromes at 2100ft (100ft above the zone) and not make a single call, and there are others who even at 500ft above certain ATZs MUST make a call. I'd like to hear from others. In some cases, isn't just listening in enough?
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I work at an airfield in Class 'G' airspace, with an ATZ (no class 'D' protection) and published Instrument approach procedures which involve a hold situated over the airfield which can be active up to FL65.
If you flew through my overhead without talking you would NOT be flavour of the month
The GA airfield I fly from (A/G service only) has an NDB on the airfield, which is used for IMC training (in VMC only of course). The initial level of the procedure when flown is 2400' QNH - 200 ft above the ATZ.
Still think it's a good idea to just 'listen'?
CM
If you flew through my overhead without talking you would NOT be flavour of the month
The GA airfield I fly from (A/G service only) has an NDB on the airfield, which is used for IMC training (in VMC only of course). The initial level of the procedure when flown is 2400' QNH - 200 ft above the ATZ.
Still think it's a good idea to just 'listen'?
CM
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 12th Aug 2002 at 19:06.
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I'm not really qualified to comment as I'm still learning, but it seems to annoy my instructor when we're doing circuits and somebody overflies us unannounced.
Due to controlled airspace above, there may only be a few hundred feet separation. Doesn't help my paranoia about mid-airs!
Due to controlled airspace above, there may only be a few hundred feet separation. Doesn't help my paranoia about mid-airs!
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Chilli
Say I'm flying VFR and you are providing your IFR traffic with separation.
Your in Class G - so its see and avoid for me and your problem for your IFR separation.
Sorry mate, but one of your colleagues made this quite clear in a posting last month.
Personally, I'd prefer for us to talk, but if you ATC guys aren't going to give us VFR boys avoiding action, whats in it for us?
Say I'm flying VFR and you are providing your IFR traffic with separation.
Your in Class G - so its see and avoid for me and your problem for your IFR separation.
Sorry mate, but one of your colleagues made this quite clear in a posting last month.
Personally, I'd prefer for us to talk, but if you ATC guys aren't going to give us VFR boys avoiding action, whats in it for us?
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Most of my regular routes from "home" include crossing ATZs. The most usual is Stapleford (where LAM lives). I usually pass at 2300 feet, and always call them.
Not sure what to say, so I just report where I am, where I'm going, height, and "thought you'd want to know we're up here". Seems to work.
Not sure what to say, so I just report where I am, where I'm going, height, and "thought you'd want to know we're up here". Seems to work.
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F3G
Take your point about the VFR and avoiding action - we can't give it. However, if you were to call you would get traffic information and possibly a suggested routeing which would enable you to route away from the IFR traffic and although standard separation would not be applicable at least it gives all concerned a fighting chance. That's got to be a lot easier than having an 'AIRPROX' filed, which would after a lot of paperwork only be classified as the say all 'conflict in the open FIR - category 'C''.
I accept you're under 'see and avoid', but give us the info that you're there and we will do the best we can whilst staying inside the rules of the airspace we work in. Class 'G' operation is a nightmare and at the end of the day you do the best you can with the information and equipment you have available.
Why do you think that of all the ATC units in class 'G' airspace only one is staffed by NATS?
CM
Take your point about the VFR and avoiding action - we can't give it. However, if you were to call you would get traffic information and possibly a suggested routeing which would enable you to route away from the IFR traffic and although standard separation would not be applicable at least it gives all concerned a fighting chance. That's got to be a lot easier than having an 'AIRPROX' filed, which would after a lot of paperwork only be classified as the say all 'conflict in the open FIR - category 'C''.
I accept you're under 'see and avoid', but give us the info that you're there and we will do the best we can whilst staying inside the rules of the airspace we work in. Class 'G' operation is a nightmare and at the end of the day you do the best you can with the information and equipment you have available.
Why do you think that of all the ATC units in class 'G' airspace only one is staffed by NATS?
CM
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Final 3 Greens
That is a terrible attitude to have!!
Whats in it for you is the fact that you will be prewarned against other traffic which makes flying for you a little bit safer!!! It still doesnt take away your "lookout" responsibility but surely every little bit helps?
As Chilli says its a lot easier than having an 'AIRPROX' filed, and makes everybodys job a bit easier.
And Chilli hats off to you, I certainly wouldn't wanna work class G all the time. Its way too scary!!!!
I'll stick to my class D and surrounding E, although if only we could turn that into D too.......
Well a gal can dream cant she???
if you ATC guys aren't going to give us VFR boys avoiding action, whats in it for us?
Whats in it for you is the fact that you will be prewarned against other traffic which makes flying for you a little bit safer!!! It still doesnt take away your "lookout" responsibility but surely every little bit helps?
As Chilli says its a lot easier than having an 'AIRPROX' filed, and makes everybodys job a bit easier.
And Chilli hats off to you, I certainly wouldn't wanna work class G all the time. Its way too scary!!!!
I'll stick to my class D and surrounding E, although if only we could turn that into D too.......Well a gal can dream cant she???
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In the overhead
It should be good airmanship to contact a field which you plan to, or are overflying. If you want to cross in the overhead at a similar altitude to the standard overhead joining height then you are foolish not to.
Its got nothing to do with who gets what with IFR and VFR, when you announce your intentions, you arent just advising the guy on the ground that you are there, you are telling every single aircraft on that frequency where you are. There maybe traffic joining in the overhead at a similar height to you, there may also be other traffic crossing in the overhead on a different heading that didnt announce his intentions.
Some GA airfields have a VOR etc at the airfield, such as Goodwood. That naturaly attracts crossing traffic using it for Navigation exercises.
Even if you are flying abeam, in the overhead or a mixture of the two, it takes 10 seconds to give your callsign, height and intentions, and you may just educate another 15 aircraft of that fact.
Good Airmanship is no accident,
Evening PPruNers
Speedy
Its got nothing to do with who gets what with IFR and VFR, when you announce your intentions, you arent just advising the guy on the ground that you are there, you are telling every single aircraft on that frequency where you are. There maybe traffic joining in the overhead at a similar height to you, there may also be other traffic crossing in the overhead on a different heading that didnt announce his intentions.
Some GA airfields have a VOR etc at the airfield, such as Goodwood. That naturaly attracts crossing traffic using it for Navigation exercises.
Even if you are flying abeam, in the overhead or a mixture of the two, it takes 10 seconds to give your callsign, height and intentions, and you may just educate another 15 aircraft of that fact.
Good Airmanship is no accident,
Evening PPruNers
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Good point Speedbird, but I sometimes worry that in a busy circuit on a Saturday afternoon, when a 'gumbo' announces on the radio.......'errr err Stapleford err this is err G-errr Tango Charlie, a err err Cessna 152 from err... etc etc etc. You get the picture? In those circumstances I would rather know whats going on in the circuit around me
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RT Clog up
Yep, I agree, if its short and sharp its ok, if you get someone who has pressed the button long before thinking about what they want to say its a real pain in the ar$e, especially as you rightly say on a busy saturday afternoon, every man and his dog are in the circuit - you turn onto final and all the way down you just cant call it till your short final cos mr and mrs correct and the dog and cat are passing thru, and taking 20 seconds to say it.
I guess its a matter of luck most of the time, where people are in the circuit etc.
Any suggestions? I not sure how big a problem PPL`s find this on a busy day or how there particular airfield deals with it.
Regards all,
Speedy
I guess its a matter of luck most of the time, where people are in the circuit etc.
Any suggestions? I not sure how big a problem PPL`s find this on a busy day or how there particular airfield deals with it.
Regards all,
Speedy
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Well spoken Speedbird.
Airmanship, airmanship, airmanship.......
Remember the old BT advert......it's good to talk......
Announcing your intention to overfly an overhead is prudent to flight safety. The point about instrument procedures has already been touched on, Stapleford was the example - I have seen people fly overhead Cranfield above the ATZ only to fly straight through the published holding procedure. During this Cranfield ATC were constantly calling the unidentified a/c with no reply, they weren't even listening to the radio of the airfield they were flying over!
What's the old addage? Safety is no accident.........
Regards
Airmanship, airmanship, airmanship.......
Remember the old BT advert......it's good to talk......
Announcing your intention to overfly an overhead is prudent to flight safety. The point about instrument procedures has already been touched on, Stapleford was the example - I have seen people fly overhead Cranfield above the ATZ only to fly straight through the published holding procedure. During this Cranfield ATC were constantly calling the unidentified a/c with no reply, they weren't even listening to the radio of the airfield they were flying over!
What's the old addage? Safety is no accident.........
Regards
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quote:
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I'll stick to my class D and surrounding E, although if only we could turn that into D too.......
Well a gal can dream cant she???
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Aerbabe - Talk about a terrible attitude! I hope you were just kidding.
The less class D expansion we have, the better.
Obviously I accept that control is desireable for some busy airspace; but any encroachment on currently uncontrolled airspace must be completely justified and not arbitrarily expropriated to build up the ATC empire. There is room in the sky for us little people, who often fly without transponders or radios.
To get back to the main post: "it all depends". If there is not much radio traffic, I usually call in, and ATC invariably appreciates the courtesy. If the frequency is busy, I keep off the air. I agree with Speedbird.
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I'll stick to my class D and surrounding E, although if only we could turn that into D too.......
Well a gal can dream cant she???
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Aerbabe - Talk about a terrible attitude! I hope you were just kidding.
The less class D expansion we have, the better.
Obviously I accept that control is desireable for some busy airspace; but any encroachment on currently uncontrolled airspace must be completely justified and not arbitrarily expropriated to build up the ATC empire.
There is room in the sky for us little people, who often fly without transponders or radios. To get back to the main post: "it all depends". If there is not much radio traffic, I usually call in, and ATC invariably appreciates the courtesy. If the frequency is busy, I keep off the air. I agree with Speedbird.
Personally I would always call any aerodrome I'm going to be flying near to let them know who I am, where I am and what I'll be doing. It doesn't have to be a long, rambling call - just something like "Anytown Radio, this is G-****. PA28 from Somewhereville to Otherplace, will be passing 3 miles North West of your aerodrome in 2 minutes at 2500 on the Cotswold; will advise you when clear" Invariably the aerodrome will be glad for the call. Mark you, when I did the same at a small military aerodrome and was told "Do not enter the MATZ", I was somewhat cross. So they were told that we would be passing over the aerodrome at 3001' a.g.l.......but that was a few years ago, I'm a bit less stubborn these days!
The routes I use for PPL Skill Tests involve flight near other aerodromes in Class G airspace as a deliberate test of the pilot's airmanship.
The routes I use for PPL Skill Tests involve flight near other aerodromes in Class G airspace as a deliberate test of the pilot's airmanship.
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Class ?? airspace
ATCBabe - Like others I do believe you are kidding in your quest for more controlled airspace. (I do hope so) I think it would be an absolutely splendid idea if airports had to pay "rent" on the volume of airspace they want for their own control. how much would then be relinquished in a hurry and suddenly become open FIR?
We can all think of examples but what is your worst one?
We can all think of examples but what is your worst one?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I agree - always best to talk to people if you're flying near their airspace.
Flying north from White Waltham often takes me very close to Booker's ATZ. Even if I'm going to be a mile or two outside their zone, always call them to advise them where I am. Usually ATC will tell me something along the lines of "caution, airfield is very busy, runway XX is in use and there's intensive gliding." Not particularly helpful to me, and I don't know if the controllers gain any benefit from me calling them or not. But I know that pilots who are joining or leaving the airfield benefit from it, since I'll be flying in the same airspace as them, probably at a similar altitude - I'm certain that talking to Wycombe, and to other pilots on frequency, is the best thing to do.
I also recall a time, shortly after I got my PPL, when I was flying around Essex. Became slightly uncertain of my position, but a quick check with the chart showed that I could fly to the VOR at Stapleford. I didn't engage my brain, flew direct to the VOR at an altitude of not-very-high, and straight over the top of the circuit, without talking to anyone. Not something I plan on ever doing again!
FFF
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PS - Canadian Luscombe, you might want to amend your post to address ATCBabe as ATCBabe, and not AerBabe, before either of them notices. Not that either of them would mind, I'm sure...
Flying north from White Waltham often takes me very close to Booker's ATZ. Even if I'm going to be a mile or two outside their zone, always call them to advise them where I am. Usually ATC will tell me something along the lines of "caution, airfield is very busy, runway XX is in use and there's intensive gliding." Not particularly helpful to me, and I don't know if the controllers gain any benefit from me calling them or not. But I know that pilots who are joining or leaving the airfield benefit from it, since I'll be flying in the same airspace as them, probably at a similar altitude - I'm certain that talking to Wycombe, and to other pilots on frequency, is the best thing to do.
I also recall a time, shortly after I got my PPL, when I was flying around Essex. Became slightly uncertain of my position, but a quick check with the chart showed that I could fly to the VOR at Stapleford. I didn't engage my brain, flew direct to the VOR at an altitude of not-very-high, and straight over the top of the circuit, without talking to anyone.
Not something I plan on ever doing again!FFF
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PS - Canadian Luscombe, you might want to amend your post to address ATCBabe as ATCBabe, and not AerBabe, before either of them notices. Not that either of them would mind, I'm sure...
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Canadian Luscombe
As FFF has said it was me that wanted more class D around my airfield, not aerbabe ( much as she knows I lurve her!! )
Class E airspace is controlled airspace!!
The airfield that I work at is certainly getting much busier and is the sixth busiest in the uk (well if all the published figures are correct!).
Class D further round on our descent paths would make life so much easier and indeed that little bit safer. I could tell you stories of VFR traffic at 3000ft on 10 mile finals, just where we turn IFR traffic on the llz at that height. Makes it worse when they are orbiting in the area and not speaking to you!! The amount of delay this can coz is unbelievable.
You are right that light VFR traffic has a place, everyone has got to start and learn somewhere. However what joy there can be in watching out and avoiding B767s, etc when passing so close to busy airfields and not talking eludes me
As FFF has said it was me that wanted more class D around my airfield, not aerbabe ( much as she knows I lurve her!!
)
any encroachment on currently uncontrolled airspace must be completely justified
The airfield that I work at is certainly getting much busier and is the sixth busiest in the uk (well if all the published figures are correct!).Class D further round on our descent paths would make life so much easier and indeed that little bit safer. I could tell you stories of VFR traffic at 3000ft on 10 mile finals, just where we turn IFR traffic on the llz at that height. Makes it worse when they are orbiting in the area and not speaking to you!!
The amount of delay this can coz is unbelievable.You are right that light VFR traffic has a place, everyone has got to start and learn somewhere. However what joy there can be in watching out and avoiding B767s, etc when passing so close to busy airfields and not talking eludes me
Last edited by ATCbabe; 13th Aug 2002 at 10:16.
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You must talk, simple as that. It lets other aircraft know you are in the vicinity and ATC (or whatever) know you are about.
Redhill is a good example. Although I can't see anyone wanting to fly directly overhead unless they are joining the circuit there is a "corridor" just to the North in between Redhill and Biggin which many aircraft use going East - West - East and it's got to be good airmanship to announce your presence.
Redhill is a good example. Although I can't see anyone wanting to fly directly overhead unless they are joining the circuit there is a "corridor" just to the North in between Redhill and Biggin which many aircraft use going East - West - East and it's got to be good airmanship to announce your presence.
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Chilli
I was just winding ATCBabe up (seemed to work too!)
Wouldn't come anywhere near your overhead without talking to you first, so don't worry. As I learned at Southend, I understand the controllers perspective in working an active hold and ILS in open airspace.
ATCBabe - sorry couldn't resist!
I was just winding ATCBabe up (seemed to work too!)
Wouldn't come anywhere near your overhead without talking to you first, so don't worry. As I learned at Southend, I understand the controllers perspective in working an active hold and ILS in open airspace.
ATCBabe - sorry couldn't resist!