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Electronic, no paper

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Electronic, no paper

Old 2nd Jul 2019, 20:08
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Electronic, no paper

Since when has the requirement for a paper chart in the aircraft been removed?

Ongoing beer discussion here!
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 20:21
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Has there ever been one?
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 12:15
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From my POV electronic things go wrong, paper charts don't (unless you are in an open cockpit :-) ) QED
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 16:04
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I don't know the legal position in aircraft but I carry a road atlas in the car and despite built in sat nav it has saved the day more than once when the ability to quickly see the 'big picture' has been of huge benefit.
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 18:06
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There has never been a requirement for paper charts per se, the wording requires you have the appropriate tools and information to conduct the flight safely.
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 20:38
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I once had an iPad overheat on me on a warm summers day when it was sitting in direct sunlight in cockpit, it had my plates and en route info. Didn't have frequencies written down so had to dick about on internet on mobile phone on the CAA UK AIP looking for the frequency. Lesson learn, always have paper backup of the important stuff!
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 22:05
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I don’t carry paper backups anymore. If the iPad goes tits-up there’s still the iPhone in my pocket and an on-board device. Plus a radio as last resort.
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 22:30
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Originally Posted by Fostex View Post
I once had an iPad overheat on me on a warm summers day when it was sitting in direct sunlight in cockpit, it had my plates and en route info. Didn't have frequencies written down so had to dick about on internet on mobile phone on the CAA UK AIP looking for the frequency. Lesson learn, always have paper backup of the important stuff!
Should’ve called London or Scottish Info as appropriate
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 00:33
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Originally Posted by Dave Gittins View Post
From my POV electronic things go wrong, paper charts don't (unless you are in an open cockpit :-) ) QED
what tosh

it was much much easier and more common to get lost, or temporarily unsure of position, in the good old days.

When will people wake wake up and smell the coffee.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 10:05
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Having used both paper and electronic tools for VFR navigation, I came to the conclusion that old school flight preparation on a paper map, with manual route development, safe altitude identification, plan B consideration results into more enjoyable, properly conducted flight. Looking for and observing interesting landmarks, understanding and getting an impression of local geography details is big part of reward that flying gives me. Not saying this is not achievable with electronic tools, though selling point of most of them is to exactly “automate” flight planning and navigation and this is exactly how most of people that I know use it.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 13:05
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Sorry Blueandwhite I sit on a Local Airspace Infringement Team and the number of people infringing (and by implication not where they thought they were) is on the increase. I use my iPad and Skydemon in the main but always keep a half mil open in case the iPad expires [like it did once in Florida until I scrabbled about and got the powerbank hooked up.] I also keep the important frequencies on my kneepad.

Agree with CFO there is an element of satisfaction when it all (surprisingly) works out.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 13:13
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Good idea to do everything on paper if you're able to take your time to plan an excursion and see it as a personal challenge.
But the CAA are very strongly encouraging pilots to use GPS, in the hope of keeping the hopelessly incapable navigators among us out of controlled airspace.

Having started my flying some forty five years ago in the old traditional way, (later taught to navigate on paper charts at 350 kts / 250' agl, then somewhat slower but down to ground level on rotary wing), I do still carry paper charts as an absolute backup plan, but all my planning (helicopter) these days is done electronically. Where required, I print out landing site details using a subscription of "Anquet Maps" for my 1:50,000 mapping and prints of aerial photography from "Google Earth". I never otherwise hold a paper chart/map in flight. Instead I use the two "standard fit" (duplicate) GPS units in the aircraft plus a hand held tablet with Sky Demon, duplicated on a mobile phone.

As the RAF used to say: "There's absolutely no need to practice bleeding!" So I don't.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 15:43
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I fly with a tablet, my usual steed has a GTN650 in it, yet I still fly with a paper chart. In Europe, I particularly like the new trend for 1:1,000,000 charts, which are great for backup, and very compact and affordable.

In the USA about a month ago, I was (very thankfully!) not involved but in the building when a dispondent IR candidate came in with a rather angry DPE who had just failed the candidates IR checkride after in the middle of a procedure his iPad - the sole source of approach plate data he had in the cockpit, overheated and shut down.

It may well be minimal, it may well push your workload up, but I really don't like flying without at-least *just* enough on paper to finish the flight if all the data-holding electronics goes tits up.

But so far as I know this is not, and never has been, a legal requirement. The legal requirement is that the commander is satisfied there's sufficient and up-to-date data on board. The form of that is up to them.

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 4th Jul 2019 at 15:58.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 18:26
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When we did our Sweden adventure last year we planned on paper (cost a fortune) and flew it electronically. iPad had a constant stream of cooling air from a vent and only overheated once we got on the ground.

Even at work with twin Garmin 750 and twin iPads we still get out the paper chart.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 11:24
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Genghis - couldn't agree more. Why would you not carry some form of paper backup? Why would you trust your life to a consumer device? especially on an instrument flight, let alone a checkride. Just how many ways can an ipad go wrong? It doesn't have to be complicated or expensive to carry paper. Its nearly all free info for a start these days. The Children of the Magenta are nothing on the children of the ipad !
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 18:19
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Haven't used paper charts in over 10 years or so. Most of the time with charts on iPads, a lesser amount on windows tablet PCs. Never had an iPad overheat, although they were mounted on a heated window in direct sunlight, nor one of the windows PCs for that matter. However, the type of iPad was chosen and certified for our kind of operation, every software update had to be validated which usually meant that we were not allowed to update iOS for several weeks, and for major iOS updates usually until the next minor update was certified, so in effect months. Same for every operationally used software.

That said, of course it is somewhat different with two FMCs holding the full flightplan, datalink to get weather and operational information, CPDLC in some areas and frankly no need to know frequencies as one gets always send from one to the next one anyway. And of course we do have at least two EFBs with the charts on board, in the iPad case we had 3 (personal one for each pilot, spare one in the wardrobe in the flightdeck). In a single pilot case i still would use iPads, but i would carry 2, with the correct flight plan loaded on both, one as backup and one as primary device. And always wait a bit with iOS updates, they usually do contain some new bugs or software needs to be updated to work perfectly again with it.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 23:28
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My last IFR student was flying his very well equipped C210 when it occurred to me to ask how many moving map displays we had available; the answer was 7

MX200 MFD
Garmin 430
Garmin Aera 660 on control wheel
Foreflight on his i-pad and phone and Foreflight on my i-pad and phone

There were no paper charts........
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 02:37
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever View Post
My last IFR student was flying his very well equipped C210 when it occurred to me to ask how many moving map displays we had available; the answer was 7

MX200 MFD
Garmin 430
Garmin Aera 660 on control wheel
Foreflight on his i-pad and phone and Foreflight on my i-pad and phone

There were no paper charts........
That seems very reasonable! Presumably a paper chart is of limited use in the event of a failure of all electronics unless you have been keeping some kind of paper-based record of position/time, ideally on the chart itself? Otherwise you will have to make a best guess of your current position and immediately work-up a paper-based plan, How accurate and easy that is will depend on the length of the current leg, whether or not you know the last/next waypoints and can see them on your chart, whether you have bothered to keep an eye on actual wind drift or just followed the magenta line and a few other variables.

On boats 'best practice' is to keep a running plot on a paper chart at intervals ranging from twice a day to twice a minute depending on where you are. But I suspect few do that any more; although it does help to keep a view of 'the big picture'. Yachtmaster candidates are expected to use plotters and any other whizzy kit on the boat, but be able to seamlessly switch to paper when the examiner turns them off, which of course everyone knows will happen, and at a very inconvenient moment!
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 07:25
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A couple of years ago, I was on my way to Stapleford aerodrome. As is the norm these days, my GPS was programmed with the destination and I was happily following the magenta line, noting that I would arrive in plenty of time for a coffee before my next activity.

Then it happened. My trusty portable Garmin froze. And I mean froze as nothing I could do would persuade it to reset; in fact, it wouldn't even switch off and the screen showed my last position and time. I did have a back up GPS, but that was in the luggage compartment. However, as I wasn't very familiar with the destination area, I'd taken the precaution of preparing a paper map of the final part of the route. Not something I would normally bothered to have done, but rather fortunate that I'd done so on the day my GPS decided to fail.

Perhaps I should mention at this stage that I wasn't flying, I was in my trusty Teutonic tourer and the GPS froze just after leaving the M25. But software is software and my problem could just have easily have occurred in an aircraft.

(I suspect the reason for the failure was due to some lorry driver with a GPS jammer as it happened as I passed a lorry park. I've had a couple of other brief failures when overtaking foreign HGVs on motorways....)
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 09:40
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