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UK GA Misogyny;Are Female Pilots Denigrated.

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UK GA Misogyny;Are Female Pilots Denigrated.

Old 25th Oct 2018, 18:20
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UK GA Misogyny;Are Female Pilots Denigrated.

In a long running thread thread here on PPRuNe there have been serious allegations of misogyny aimed at the mainstream flying community.

I have never really thought about whether a pilot friend is male or female(or indeed gay,trans or anything else).

However recent news stories have suggested that UK and indeed global aviation is a male dominated society.

I have noticed the British Women Pilots Association are not raising their heads above the parapet to substantiate these claims of misogyny in the press and media.

So if we have an issue regarding lack off opportunities for women can someone please highlight.

Last edited by Mike Flynn; 25th Oct 2018 at 20:40.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 18:48
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Care to link such stories? I don't think it's a lack of opportunities; you can have all the opportunities there but if there are no takers, there's really nothing else you can do.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 18:54
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I flew as a PPL for many years and never encountered any sort of misogyny, indeed quite the reverse. I was always made very welcome at every club I visited and given every encouragement to continue my training and broaden my flying experience. Yes, being female meant that I was always in a minority but that never bothered me, and it clearly never bothered any of my (mainly male) flying colleagues or instructors either. I have an interest in aviation medicine and did have several discussions with instructors about how some felt that male and female students tended to have different learning styles, and sometimes tended towards different types of flying careers (sweeping generalisations, of course) but that was just based on our observations, not misogyny! I may have to dust off that PPL one of these days as I am missing being part of the flying community!
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 20:57
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I learned to fly in 2004 and trained along with two women. Both were considerably younger than me, I never treated them any different or looked on them differently. After gaining our PPLs we often hired an aircraft and flew each sector in turn with great amounts of slagging and teasing we all took our turn at buying tea and bickies at the various airports. They both went on to become commercial pilots and have very successful careers. Since then I have had the privileged to fly as a Paramedic on Helimed 5 with my flight crew being female. To be called a misogynist on another forum by a very bitter self centered woman actually hurt more than I would care to admit! My home airfield is Cumbernauld and there is a very good proportion of excellent female pilots there and have trained there not 50/50 I admit. I can name 8 female pilots that I know 6 of whom have gone commercial.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 21:50
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Just because the population is 52% male and 48% female does not mean we'll see that proportion in everything from CEOs to businessmen to doctors to nurses to midwives to garbage collectors to sewer cleaners. Anyone who expects this to be the case needs a head check.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 22:05
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You know what re TCT... Let it go.

I am not personally a brave pilot, but will will happily recognise any outstanding achievements blind to sex or orientation...it really is of no relevance. The misogyny thing is diversionary rubbish as we all know.

Let us just applaud all genuine achievements

Longwings...out
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 22:34
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I'm the ubiquitous white, straight male - so could reasonably be accused of not seeing the whole picture.

Frankly, yes, I've see sexism and racism - mostly but not only displayed by people who, well, look like me. But from grown up aviation professionals - virtually none.

From people from the fringes, people who don't hold aviation professional qualifications - yes I have. The closer you get to the core of professionalism, no you don't.

I recall a friend, a now retired lady helicopter instructor in conversation saying that she saw little or no sexism from any qualified pilot, but often experienced it from potential new students who were clearly extremely unhappy about the idea of a woman flying instructor. I recall a (now thankfully eased out) manager in the organisation I work for who would regularly disparage appointment of young professional women as "they'd just go and get pregnant". Invariably these young women were better qualified than he was. The new immediate colleagues of those young women, when I appointed them - quite rightly just treated her as a fellow professional, and judged them by that yardstick.

So it's out there - but in my experience not amongst aviation grown ups. Hence, I think that accusations directed at the great and good of the sport flying organisations are, frankly, utter cobblers.

G
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 22:46
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Originally Posted by longwings View Post
You know what re TCT... Let it go.

I am not personally a brave pilot, but will will happily recognise any outstanding achievements blind to sex or orientation...it really is of no relevance. The misogyny thing is diversionary rubbish as we all know.

Let us just applaud all genuine achievements

Longwings...out
Sorry but I don't agree with "Let it go" and I'm surely not the only one who feels that it's wrong how she has portrayed us so negatively to the world at large and appears to be getting away with it. She seems to have the ear of well-connected people who are either completely taken in by her version of events, or aren't particularly concerned about the exact truth and whether her deceptions have benefitted her undeservedly,

It seems likely that her anticipated book will perpetuate her tissue of half-truths and it would be a pity if no-one is willing to write and get published an antidote to such toxicity. Obviously this isn't the best forum to achieve some redress, but it's a start.

Last edited by Colibri49; 25th Oct 2018 at 23:27.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 23:48
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I think Genghis has it. That matches my experience, although I am only a recreational pilot. Today's example: non-flying visitors at the airfield were told that the aeroplane they were admiring was mine. 'Oh, do you fly it?' was the response, one that would not have been made were I not female, I'm certain. When the conversation moves on, such attitudes do too, so it's not all bad.

The only general, not personal, sexist comment from the flying world I've experienced was from a winch driver - in 1988.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 23:48
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The misogyny thing is diversionary rubbish as we all know.
And there is the whole issue summed up in one sentence beautifully.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 00:57
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Originally Posted by YPJT View Post
And there is the whole issue summed up in one sentence beautifully.
Maybe even further. One killer application and driving force in evolution was the division of labor, or better to speak specialisation. The current destructable force towards turning evolutions history wheel back to a religious quota based equality of individuals is a mistake. There is no sense in a fifty percent quota of pug dogs and greyhounds in a dog race, no matter how hard you train the pug.

The discussion on misogyny appears to be poisioned by the longing for getting unearned advantages, not to equal chances.

An airmen is an airmen, no matter if man or woman. What people bothers most is - you can measure it.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 04:37
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For many years I shared an aeroplane with my husband, and we took turns as P1. The general assumption was usually that he was flying as the pilot and I was passenger. Unless I was taking him to a fly in run by women for women, when I used to hear HIM getting the "do you fly too" question.
He doesn't fly now, so I got myself a little autogiro, which though technically a two seater now has an auxiliary fuel tank taking up the passenger seat. So far when flying that, no one has asked me if I can fly as well. So, if you don't like being patronised, get a single seater.
I don't think men mean to annoy us by their assumption that the husband is the pilot, but it's true far more men than women fly for recreation. We need to change society in general before flying clubs will change.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 07:26
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An analogy.

Mrs CGB has both a pilots licence and a driving licence. I would say that approximately 95% of the time we go out in the car, I drive. Is that misogyny? No. If asked, she tells me she's just happy for me to drive as she she's the whole thing as a bit of a chore.

Different people, different ways.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 10:59
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That women are less likely to (want to) fly an aircraft than men is neither misogynist nor sexist but a simple observation and can be explained by quite authoritative evidence on sex differences regarding interest for things vs. people (and why this would be something that ought to be changed is beyond me).

That those women who do fly are in any way systematically inferior to their male counterparts is not only misogynist and sexist, but complete rubbish -- just as there is authoritative evidence for differences in interest, there is equally authoritative evidence against any differences in potential, aptitude, skill etc..

When seeing a couple and an aircraft, a first guess that the man is the pilot is simply an evidence-based assumption. Any guess that he is the better pilot is at best a chauvinist fantasy.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 11:37
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My GST/GFT or whatever it's called was conducted under the supervision of a lady examiner. She reminded me of those wonderful ATA ladies, for whom I have the greatest admiration.

As for misogyny in aviation, what utter tripe. Even Saudi Arabia has women pilots, although I'm not sure if they can drive cars yet ? However, I'm sure that will be a mere formality, once they've cracked that reverse parking malarkey.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 12:06
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The only sex discrimination I ever noticed in 30 years of aviation was that the girls often seemed to get hired a damn sight quicker and easier than the boys, and often with less experience too but I suppose those with an axe to grind would suggest this is due to sexist attitudes by red-blooded male chief pilots.
Of the girls I flew with in 737 and Airbus I think on average thay were at a higher standard than the boys - or at least there were fewer towards the lower end of the spectrum. I always attributed this to their feeling that they had to prove themselves and so made more effort and took more care rather than any inate ability.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 12:39
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Of my last half dozen "BFRs" three have been carried out by ladies, two of the last three in fact. I'm with Genghis and CC. I've practically never encountered misogyny in aviation.

With Martha Lunken about and writing, what's not to admire in lady pilots ?
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 12:45
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The last time I flew was at Sherburn in Elmet, we had a fabulous day and were made very welcome by all and sundry. Great flight around Yorkshire and then back for lunch with some of the regulars (young and old, male and female). Nothing special about that except I was with my youngest child who happens to be trans-gender. So if anyone wants to say I am sexist or misogynist then they can try; for me gender matters not one jot and is just as unimportant as the colour of the socks someone chooses to wear.

This is why I get so angry when people use gender as a tool in an argument they are losing or use it to suit their ambitions when they can, and it is just one of many reasons why I became involved in the "other threads". If anyone has to play the race/religion/sex card in a debate then I know they have no real grounds to support their claims and are just scrabbling at an excuse.

A very good friend of mine was so proud when his daughter was selected to start commercial pilot training on some scholarship programme about 5 years ago, at the time it was something she wanted to do and there were no barriers in her way. Is she a line-pilot now? No she isn't because she gave up having decided that it just wasn't what SHE wanted to do.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 13:12
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We women are more conservative and careful than men, who usually have more money than the girls. My first flight was over Tampa Bay, Florida, in 1944, and after that life got more complicated. With 4 kids to raise, not a lot of spare time or money. So not until 1983, noticing the gliders crossing the M40 at High Wycombe, had another go....never forget sitting in the front seat of the K13, tug towline getting tight, do I really want to do this! .....and the tug powered up, and we followed it over the hedge, and that was IT! since then, never stopped flying.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 14:32
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Originally Posted by Armchairflyer View Post
That women are less likely to (want to) fly an aircraft than men is neither misogynist nor sexist but a simple observation and can be explained by quite authoritative evidence on sex differences regarding interest for things vs. people (and why this would be something that ought to be changed is beyond me).
You better get in line with today's line of thought or risk the mob rule. There are no differences between men and women, we are all the same, fact!
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