Brexit pushing UK out of EASA
TOO
To whom do you think that Airbus will turn when they, according to your estimation can't or won't source British engines and wings ?
The Americans ? Their arch commercial rivals ? Yes, that's likely ! The Chinese ? The Brazilians? All that jigging, re-tooling, specifications, drawings and there is the little matter of a communications language acceptable to all.
Forget the latest Blairite announcement. The EU enjoys a massive trade surplus with GB. They ain't going to give that up in a hurry !
To whom do you think that Airbus will turn when they, according to your estimation can't or won't source British engines and wings ?
The Americans ? Their arch commercial rivals ? Yes, that's likely ! The Chinese ? The Brazilians? All that jigging, re-tooling, specifications, drawings and there is the little matter of a communications language acceptable to all.
Forget the latest Blairite announcement. The EU enjoys a massive trade surplus with GB. They ain't going to give that up in a hurry !
Engines are a commodity item, and there's no particular disadvantage to using american ones if they are economically competitive.
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Islanders are outside the scope of private flying and I was not sure about the Pup. Although the microlights have been successful, the Shadow, in particular coming across as a very good aeroplane, most have been flexwings for recreational use. France has had generations of homebuilts; Jodels, Pottiers, Gardans and M. Colomban's odd but clever betises, to name a few. Rallye, 3000 plus airframes and Robin's 2000 or so versus what? The ARV Super Two?
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We will also want to explore with the EU, the terms on which the UK could remain part of EU agencies such as those that are critical for the chemicals, medicines and aerospace industries: the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency, and the European Aviation Safety Agency.
We would, of course, accept that this would mean abiding by the rules of those agencies and making an appropriate financial contribution.
I want to explain what I believe the benefits of this approach could be, both for us and the EU.
First, associate membership of these agencies is the only way to meet our objective of ensuring that these products only need to undergo one series of approvals, in one country.
Second, these agencies have a critical role in setting and enforcing relevant rules. And if we were able to negotiate associate membership we would be able to ensure that we could continue to provide our technical expertise.
Third, associate membership could permit UK firms to resolve certain challenges related to the agencies through UK courts rather than the ECJ.
For example, in the case of Switzerland, associate membership of the European Aviation Safety Agency means that airworthiness certifications are granted by its own aviation authority, and disputes are resolved through its courts. Without its membership, Swiss airlines would need to gain their certifications through another member state or through the Agency, and any dispute would need to be resolved through the ECJ.
We would, of course, accept that this would mean abiding by the rules of those agencies and making an appropriate financial contribution.
I want to explain what I believe the benefits of this approach could be, both for us and the EU.
First, associate membership of these agencies is the only way to meet our objective of ensuring that these products only need to undergo one series of approvals, in one country.
Second, these agencies have a critical role in setting and enforcing relevant rules. And if we were able to negotiate associate membership we would be able to ensure that we could continue to provide our technical expertise.
Third, associate membership could permit UK firms to resolve certain challenges related to the agencies through UK courts rather than the ECJ.
For example, in the case of Switzerland, associate membership of the European Aviation Safety Agency means that airworthiness certifications are granted by its own aviation authority, and disputes are resolved through its courts. Without its membership, Swiss airlines would need to gain their certifications through another member state or through the Agency, and any dispute would need to be resolved through the ECJ.
There is zero surprise here (or there shouldn't be!) This approach was settled from day 1, but nevertheless worth quoting as it is now official government brexit policy.
That's a long way from saying it's going to happen as we all know. There are two challenges to everything she said today:
Her rickety, ramshackle coalition (and I include in that a bunch of hacked off tory eurosceptic hardliners). They can bring her and her plan down, if they have the stones.
And of course the structural bureaucracy of the EU negotiating players.
All to play for I'd say.
Footnote
tweet from the CBI:
"Excellent news if UK can stay in key agencies like EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) - glad PM has focused on them."
And for me this is the real interest...lots of people zoning in on aviation. Why? Because when the rhetoric of brexit finally becomes the reality of brexit, it happens here first.
I'm hogging the thread...I'll lurk for a bit and hope somebody else brings something interesting.
Last edited by The Old Fat One; 2nd Mar 2018 at 19:20.
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Reading a news article in a old flyer magazine which shows the fatal accident rate in EASA member states as somewhere between 3 and 4 per 100,000 hours while in the USA it sits at 1.03 which is roughly a quarter
If its nearly 4 times more safe using F A rules why doesn’t the CAA just cut and paste the F A rules and make that law
and we tell EASA where to go
If its nearly 4 times more safe using F A rules why doesn’t the CAA just cut and paste the F A rules and make that law
and we tell EASA where to go
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Reading a news article in a old flyer magazine which shows the fatal accident rate in EASA member states as somewhere between 3 and 4 per 100,000 hours while in the USA it sits at 1.03 which is roughly a quarter
If its nearly 4 times more safe using F A rules why doesn’t the CAA just cut and paste the F A rules and make that law
and we tell EASA where to go
If its nearly 4 times more safe using F A rules why doesn’t the CAA just cut and paste the F A rules and make that law
and we tell EASA where to go
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Apart from the very successful British microlight industry, which has often delved into the light aircraft work. E.g. - TLAC or CFM . Nearly 400 Shadows is hardly trivial, nor is the several thousand aircaft built by P&M and its two predecessor companies: . The Bulldog was built as military but is now widespread in civilian use and been highly successful in both. The Slingsby Firefly was both civilian and military and seems to have done fairly well. The AMF Chevvron could have done better but wasn't an outright disaster.
And, as has already been said, the Islander.
And, as has already been said, the Islander.
Ask Angus about the Chevvron and you'll get nothing more than expletives regarding the people who buy light aircraft. As ever a nice design with real promise, no real ability to produce it in numbers and no real thought to do so. (and yes I own one and it is lovely but......)
If Airbus see a real opportunity to relocate production to France it will happen. The only reason production exists in the UK is due to the technology behind the wing design - offer the chaps and chapess's relocation to Toulouse or Paris and forget BAe and wing fabrication - there is plenty of fabrication spare space in France.
If you want to find a genuine aviation success story - most of them lie in the parts, components and rather less glamorous areas frequented by Dowty and the like - and the withdrawal of EASA certification will hit them very hard unless some stupid politicians stop playing politics and actually do some thinking.
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Actually, the success story of the past 30 years has been European collaboration, especially with Airbus. 50% by value of the A380 is British-built, principally the wings and the engines.
Presumably, Airbus will be looking elsewhere for these items post-Brexit. This will be a massive loss to the UK economy.
The other major industry that will go is UK car-building, a major export earner.
These 2 losses combined will wipe £billions off the UK economy, thank you very much.
TOO
Presumably, Airbus will be looking elsewhere for these items post-Brexit. This will be a massive loss to the UK economy.
The other major industry that will go is UK car-building, a major export earner.
These 2 losses combined will wipe £billions off the UK economy, thank you very much.
TOO
For those unaware, the workers at Audi Ingolstadt were earning sufficient such that they could afford to buy a TT. However when the production was moved to Gjör, the registrations shrank rapidly as the workers building the cars were no longer able to afford them. What I am saying is that UK is the world's 5th biggest economy. If the british economy suffers, then so too will Germany, so will France and Italy. After all, if millions of jobs vanish in UK, who will be able to afford German cars, french wine and italian - well, whatever they sell......??? The impact will hit Europe significantly because 20% of the German motoring exports come to the UK. If we are bankrupt, well, what will happen to Mercedes, BMW and co? Or do you believe that Turkey and Albania, for example, will take the share of German cars which Great Britain used to purchase?
"The very successful British microlight sector" does seem to be a thing of the past to me - I cannot remember any Brits design on the continent since the CFM Shadow. OTOH lots of C42's and Eurofoxen in the Isles.
On a sidenote, not directly related: Brussels is full of UK expats working as free-lance IT'ers, there must be a few thousands according to some. I see these people massively giving up UK nationality, most changing to the BE register but some to France and other continental countries. More losses for the Royal Treasury!
As for Islanders being manufactured in Romania: yes, but so were BAC 111's, and I even know of a Hungarian microlight builder who outsources production to Romania for even lower cost. And C42's are being produced in Ukraine. Race to the bottom, anyone?
On a sidenote, not directly related: Brussels is full of UK expats working as free-lance IT'ers, there must be a few thousands according to some. I see these people massively giving up UK nationality, most changing to the BE register but some to France and other continental countries. More losses for the Royal Treasury!
As for Islanders being manufactured in Romania: yes, but so were BAC 111's, and I even know of a Hungarian microlight builder who outsources production to Romania for even lower cost. And C42's are being produced in Ukraine. Race to the bottom, anyone?
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Ask Angus about the Chevvron and you'll get nothing more than expletives regarding the people who buy light aircraft. As ever a nice design with real promise, no real ability to produce it in numbers and no real thought to do so. (and yes I own one and it is lovely but......)
A nasty antisocial design that clutters up the circuit and should be put on a Guy Fawkes bonfire rather that let it commit aviation.
P&M Aviation still seem to be building and exporting flexwings, TLAC are doing okay, with British designs, into the British market at least - and Just Aircraft in the USA are doing reasonably well with variants.
But yes, the UK light aircraft design and build sector is tiny compared to what it once was. Personally I think that this has little to do with Brexit and/or EU membership, and everything to do with skills and aspirations. We stopped educating and training the sort of people who do that sort of innovation - the ambition became to have a safe job with a good pension in a big corporation.
Possibly the lack of big aerospace companies in, for example, the Czech Republic or the Ukraine, has been the main reason for their success in light GA manufacturing?
If we go to Germany, I would say that their success is in large part down to the Akafliegs, which have provided visibility and training in that direction, that has died out in the UK. So a small but healthy proportion of young engineers there have taken their careers in that direction. They illustrate that you can have both, but only if you have the right cultural structures. Britain gets the "big corporate" / "heavy metal" side pretty well, but not the small company / innovation / new product side that the Germans and Czechs do much better.
But I really don't think that this has anything to do with the EU.
G
But yes, the UK light aircraft design and build sector is tiny compared to what it once was. Personally I think that this has little to do with Brexit and/or EU membership, and everything to do with skills and aspirations. We stopped educating and training the sort of people who do that sort of innovation - the ambition became to have a safe job with a good pension in a big corporation.
Possibly the lack of big aerospace companies in, for example, the Czech Republic or the Ukraine, has been the main reason for their success in light GA manufacturing?
If we go to Germany, I would say that their success is in large part down to the Akafliegs, which have provided visibility and training in that direction, that has died out in the UK. So a small but healthy proportion of young engineers there have taken their careers in that direction. They illustrate that you can have both, but only if you have the right cultural structures. Britain gets the "big corporate" / "heavy metal" side pretty well, but not the small company / innovation / new product side that the Germans and Czechs do much better.
But I really don't think that this has anything to do with the EU.
G
that clutters up the circuit
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 18th Jun 2018 at 01:04.
I'm bemused by the comments on here re a successful UK GA manufacturing industry before we entered the EEC/EU. Dementia with rose coloured glasses seems to be prevalent!!
Beagle went bust with the Pup, their Airedale product was overweight and didn't sell, the 206 was very pretty but poorly built.
Britten Norman tried with the Nymph to challenge the 152/172 market .................. and failed
Lockspeiser LDA-1 was an interesting concept that nobody wanted
Cranfield A-1 could have been the Extra but it wasn't good enough
CMC Leopard personal jet........... never got past development stages
Trago Mills had the little SAH-1, but it didn't do anything.
ARV 2 showed promise then disappeared.
At the heavier end the BAe 125 was given away as there was no will power to develop a new version. Dassault had no problem and has the very successful Falcon range as a result.
The French have developed the TBM range in addition to the Robin range
The Swiss are coming on strong now with the PC-12 and PC-24
The semi successful Slingsby T-67 was originally a French design that Slingsby then stepped in and bought.
Where, apart from the excellent P&M designs, does the UK have any production facilities, design capability, willing investors?
Beagle went bust with the Pup, their Airedale product was overweight and didn't sell, the 206 was very pretty but poorly built.
Britten Norman tried with the Nymph to challenge the 152/172 market .................. and failed
Lockspeiser LDA-1 was an interesting concept that nobody wanted
Cranfield A-1 could have been the Extra but it wasn't good enough
CMC Leopard personal jet........... never got past development stages
Trago Mills had the little SAH-1, but it didn't do anything.
ARV 2 showed promise then disappeared.
At the heavier end the BAe 125 was given away as there was no will power to develop a new version. Dassault had no problem and has the very successful Falcon range as a result.
The French have developed the TBM range in addition to the Robin range
The Swiss are coming on strong now with the PC-12 and PC-24
The semi successful Slingsby T-67 was originally a French design that Slingsby then stepped in and bought.
Where, apart from the excellent P&M designs, does the UK have any production facilities, design capability, willing investors?
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P&M Aviation was formed in 2003 combining the best of Mainair Sports and Pegasus Aviation
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If we're pointing out people building UK designed aeroplanes in the UK, also...
Kit Aircraft | Aeroplane Servicing | Online Homebuild Parts Shop | TLAC | Norfolk UK
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Kit Aircraft | Aeroplane Servicing | Online Homebuild Parts Shop | TLAC | Norfolk UK
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If we're pointing out people building UK designed aeroplanes in the UK, also...
Kit Aircraft Aeroplane Servicing Online Homebuild Parts Shop TLAC Norfolk UK
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Kit Aircraft Aeroplane Servicing Online Homebuild Parts Shop TLAC Norfolk UK
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