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Brexit pushing UK out of EASA

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Brexit pushing UK out of EASA

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Old 15th Feb 2018, 13:23
  #41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen View Post
I'm a little surprised by all those who seem to think that GB aviation won't prosper outside EASAland.


What do they think was happening to GB aviation before we joined the EEC/EU ?


More to the point; there are many more countries operating efficient and dynamic aviation industries outside EASA than there are within. The likes of Brazil, America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada Indonesia, China, India appear to be sufficiently well organised to run their aviation affairs quite successfully without the intervention of the restrictive EASA.
I can only assume that you don't have recourse to interface with many of the NRAs on your list?
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 14:58
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Too obscure for me !
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 15:09
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"National Regulatory Authorities"

GTBoS

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Old 15th Feb 2018, 15:24
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen View Post
Hunter, Harrier, Buccaneer. Hawk, Vulcan, Canberra. To name a few. They seemed reasonably innovative and successful.
"Going down the pan". You should have been at Farnboro' during the 50s and 60s.
Er you do know they are all military products and have little or nothing to to do with the civil oversight and regulatory system and you may not have noticed but the world has moved on by half a century.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 15:32
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W Smith,

Thank you for a strong dose of realism!
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 17:26
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Originally Posted by Daysleeper View Post
Er you do know they are all military products and have little or nothing to to do with the civil oversight and regulatory system and you may not have noticed but the world has moved on by half a century.


Err, I think that the reference was to 'world famous British aircraft' and made no distinction between military and commercial.


One of my points concerned the ability - or otherwise of, the GB aviation industry before the Blessed Heath motored us into EU serfdom !
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 17:51
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...but we were discussing the Brexit consequences on the CIVIL regulatory/administrative system for aviation, which is why people have found your post confusing.

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Old 15th Feb 2018, 18:16
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen View Post
Err, I think that the reference was to 'world famous British aircraft' and made no distinction between military and commercial.


One of my points concerned the ability - or otherwise of, the GB aviation industry before the Blessed Heath motored us into EU serfdom !
I did say "Still flying" Things like Cubs, Champs, 172's, 182's things that have stood the test of time, that people still want.

UK military aviation _may_ have been ok back then, the civil stuff was rubbish.
So, before we went into the EU, we were dismal.
Once we are out of the EU, we'll all but vanish.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 18:33
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the civil stuff was rubbish
I donít think so: Trident, BAC 111, 146, VC 10
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 00:19
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Jetstream, bulldog.................
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 00:25
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airwave45 there was a lot of political stuff going on then with the end of the Marshall Plan etc. In 1945 the USA was the richest country in the world (the only country to financially profit from WW2), they had the foresight to take aluminium skinned aircraft to the masses. We stuck with fabric covered steel tube. Bugger.!

There is still a market for Austers, I sold my last one to a gentleman in Belgium and it was a more versatile aircraft than the Piper L4H I had before it.

Try to buy an Auster today ...................

You can loop a Cub as an old guy I worked with told me (nobody told him he couldn't). I'm a Brit, I bought the ancient Auster aeroplane, checked the paper work, it's stressed to +4.5g -1.5g so +3g loops are easy.................

Last edited by LowNSlow; 16th Feb 2018 at 00:45.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 03:05
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Quoting from the good old beeb, pre the PMs Chequers talking shop.

This is exactly why I find the aviation/brexit nexus very interesting...and soon to be informative...

....Think of aviation, for example. No-one in the industry, or really anyone in government you can find, thinks there is much wrong with being in the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). The upheaval of leaving probably isn't worth it - essentially, if it ain't broke, don't fix it...

My bold.

Whilst clearly there are those on here that would disagree with the bolded bit, sadly for them, they are not just in the minority, they are positively wandering in the wilderness. UK-Government-Wise, for anybody who is anybody (including the most hard-line brexiteers) aviation, is a settled matter. Nothing is going to change.

There's only one problem with that...and it's rather a large one. The EU, which has thus far "negotiated" like the structural bureaucrats they are, (note, I write that as a matter of fact, not intended to be in any way judgemental) may decide the UK's position does not fit with their "book of rules".

And therein lies the interest (squared) in the aviation meets brexit issue. As well as being the most immediate and direct brexit-related concern of many aviation enthusiasts on here (especially those whose mortgages depend on it!!) It's a bell-weather issue for the whole shooting match is it not?

What happens to aviation will happen first and in the full bright glare of global media.

Exciting, is it not?
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 09:54
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Taking punitive action sometimes results in shooting oneself in the foot.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 10:32
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Originally Posted by The Old Fat One View Post

....Think of aviation, for example. No-one in the industry, or really anyone in government you can find, thinks there is much wrong with being in the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). The upheaval of leaving probably isn't worth it - essentially, if it ain't broke, don't fix it...
...and of course that is demonstrably untrue, because to remain "unchanged" in EASA (even as a non-voting member) we must accept the supremacy of the ECJ as the ultimate arbiter. The Brexit Elite have repeatedly said this is an absolute red line that will never be accepted.

So to say "nothing will change" is a blatent lie - pretty well par for the course for brexiters I'll agree, but that doesn't make it true.

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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 11:37
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PDR1

Just for clarity...that's pretty much exactly what I am saying in the second part of my post, so we agree 100%.

Albeit, personally, I've stepped away from the whole brexit vesus bremain thing, I find it all very pointless now.

I'm far more interested in outcomes as they oh so slowly reveal themselves...I guess you'd call it a survivors mentality.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 17:18
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"We lost our advantage after the Comet debacle."
Fifty years after Kitty Hawk and nearly seventy years ago.
There has not been a financially successful British civilian light aircraft since WW2
(barring, possibly the Pup.) France and latterly Eastern Europe knock spots off us, EU or no EU.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 18:01
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There has not been a financially successful British civilian light aircraft since WW2
Depending on your defintions of "succesfull" and "light aircraft", the BN2 Islander scores not too bad.

France and latterly Eastern Europe knock spots off us
France has done even poorer, their only success the DR400.

As for the demise of UK aviation industry after WW2, that is much more due to giving in to Uncle Sam than to giving in to Europe. Things went wrong around 1960, when "Europe" was still nowhere. RAF had no single reason to buy C130's, for only one example, the UK industry had perfect alternatives available. All politics, really.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 18:44
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Originally Posted by m.Berger View Post
(barring, possibly the Pup.)
The Pup was a financial disaster. It's all in (of all places) Tony Benn's memoirs. When he was Industry Minister he was one of the most pro-aviation ministers we've ever had (well he was serving wartime pilot) and he went down to see Beagle with a view to granting a request for a £2m government grant to invest in volume tooling for the Pup and Basset. While there he flew both and liked them, But his finance team had gone over the books, and reported that the Pups were being sold (from memory) for about £3k each, but they were costing over £20k each to build due to barely having a single plane curve in any metal part. And what was worse was that Beagle's senior management didn't seem to be aware of this...

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Old 26th Feb 2018, 14:42
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Originally Posted by m.Berger View Post
"We lost our advantage after the Comet debacle."
Fifty years after Kitty Hawk and nearly seventy years ago.
There has not been a financially successful British civilian light aircraft since WW2
(barring, possibly the Pup.) France and latterly Eastern Europe knock spots off us, EU or no EU.
Apart from the very successful British microlight industry, which has often delved into the light aircraft work. E.g. - TLAC or CFM . Nearly 400 Shadows is hardly trivial, nor is the several thousand aircaft built by P&M and its two predecessor companies: . The Bulldog was built as military but is now widespread in civilian use and been highly successful in both. The Slingsby Firefly was both civilian and military and seems to have done fairly well. The AMF Chevvron could have done better but wasn't an outright disaster.

And, as has already been said, the Islander.

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Old 26th Feb 2018, 16:03
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Actually, the success story of the past 30 years has been European collaboration, especially with Airbus. 50% by value of the A380 is British-built, principally the wings and the engines.

Presumably, Airbus will be looking elsewhere for these items post-Brexit. This will be a massive loss to the UK economy.

The other major industry that will go is UK car-building, a major export earner.

These 2 losses combined will wipe £billions off the UK economy, thank you very much.

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