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Simulator Use

Old 21st Dec 2017, 15:12
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Some of these instructors forget that they are logging the flight as P1, so they should be looking out of the window. It's called CRM.. Cockpit Resource Management. The student is PF and should be left to fly the airplane. If the pilot wants to maintain x.thousand feet +- 50 ft. how is he going to do that without looking at the altimeter..?



The same goes for controlling the heading +-3 degrees..
.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 15:57
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Originally Posted by scifi
Some of these instructors forget that they are logging the flight as P1, so they should be looking out of the window. It's called CRM.. Cockpit Resource Management. The student is PF and should be left to fly the airplane. If the pilot wants to maintain x.thousand feet +- 50 ft. how is he going to do that without looking at the altimeter..?



The same goes for controlling the heading +-3 degrees..
.
Wonderful wonderful post! Complete tosh of course, but I enjoyed reading it
Scifi the student is learning to be a pilot and captain of the aeroplane. They have to practice good lookout from the first lesson.
In vfr flying maintaining height and heading are done by reference to things outside the aeroplane with occasional glances at the instruments to check all is well. Trying to follow the instruments doesn't work.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 16:43
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Originally Posted by scifi
Some of these instructors forget that they are logging the flight as P1, so they should be looking out of the window. It's called CRM.. Cockpit Resource Management. The student is PF and should be left to fly the airplane. If the pilot wants to maintain x.thousand feet +- 50 ft. how is he going to do that without looking at the altimeter..?



The same goes for controlling the heading +-3 degrees..
.
Must be a troll. Don’t bite.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 16:51
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Spoilsport! I was hoping to have some fun.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 17:52
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Hi Heston... 'They have to practice good lookout' Well yes, in this part of Wales that is all they would be doing.. practising. You can go for months without seeing any GA aircraft in this area.


However if you are flying a glider in a thermal with two other gliders, then lookout is very important, when the nearest will be just 200yards away . Or if you are Ridge-Running with 4 others then it is also necessary, especially if some of the more exuberant pilots are performing some un-orthodox manoeuvers. This is why gliders always have an audio variometer, so that the lookout can be maintained, whilst finding lift.


.

Last edited by scifi; 22nd Dec 2017 at 09:01.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 19:44
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Originally Posted by scifi
Hi Heston... 'They have to practice good lookout' Well yes, in this part of Wales that is all they would be doing.. practising. You can go for months without seeing any GA aircraft in this area.


However if you are flying a glider in a thermal with two other gliders, then lookout is very important, when the nearest will be just 200yards away . Or if you are Ridge-Running with 4 others then it is also necessary, especially if some of the more exuberant pilots are performing some un-orthodox manoeuvers. This is why gliders always have an audio variometer, so that the lookout can be maintained, whilst finding lift.
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Oh come on scifi, try to be a bit more convincing!
Personally I'd be looking out for fast pointy things as well as GA aircraft if I was flying in Wales or anywhere really.
And gliders in thermals get MUCH closer than 200yds.
You're right about the audio Vario though.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 22:24
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Sims are useless for VFR flight, even the top of the range commercial sims lack the depth perception to be a good VFR tool.

For IFR it is almost the opposite, they are very useful but I still hate the things........ only another six visits to the Sim until I retire !!!!!!
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 13:55
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Right off the bat let me say as a 100hr ppl I'm not trying to disagree with the instructors views on here about e.g. instrument fixation, but just offer a couple of things from my experience.

1) Having played with PC jet fighter flight sims long before I got the bug to learn to fly, I knew(TM) that stick forward was down, stick back was up and throttle faster/slower. When I started following the built-in lessons in FSX, it took me a while to break that and relearn forward faster, back slower, throttle up/down approach technique. Using the sim I was able to break the old and learn the good new technique before I even got around to starting lessons. I'm very glad I did that rather than pay an instructor rate to do it. I don't think it made instrument fixation any worse than it already was from my previous "playing" (you are allowed to play with computer sims before you know you want to train to be a pilot )

2) I bought a second hand full cessna control set of yoke, throttle and rudder pedals. I sold it after finishing my training for pretty much exactly what I paid for it, so no cost to me to have it for 3 years or so. With that I learnt to use the rudder pedals instinctively. As someone who grew up on a pushbike, the pedal steering in a plane felt back to front for me. Again I'm glad I retrained the brain on that for free rather than instructor rate.

3) I got photo-real scenery and rehearsed nav exercises both before and after I had done them looking for landmarks and never looking at the sim map display. It's easy to forget how hard it is for a new flier to actually recognise there's a bl**dy great town below them and to make out the shape to be able to compare with a map whilst not upsetting the aircraft. All very usefully practised on a PC.

So YMMV and don't think a PC sim will make you a sky god, but it can help learn (or unlearn) some techniques if you use it seriously and don't be tempted to "play" with it once you've decided to learn to fly.

Having said all this, if you've got time on the ground, don't feel the above applies, are confident you are ready for your exams and haven't read it - please use the time to read Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

I took the decision not to contradict my instructor by risking reading any different messages and saved reading it until I had passed PPL. But I wish I'd read it sooner. My continuous problems with trim and altitude chasing, whilst they had been improved by behavioural training immediately and completely disappeared with the alternative thinking of trim in this book. You won't regret it.

HTH

Last edited by Kolossi; 22nd Dec 2017 at 13:56. Reason: spelling
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 15:14
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Originally Posted by Kolossi

It's easy to forget how hard it is for a new flier to actually recognise there's a bl**dy great town below them and to make out the shape to be able to compare with a map whilst not upsetting the aircraft.
HTH
Chart to ground not the other way 'round
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 20:17
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"Chart to ground not the other way 'round"
You've never been lost!
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 23:34
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Originally Posted by Maoraigh1
"Chart to ground not the other way 'round"
You've never been lost!
That’s the point. If you are unsure of your position, it is too easy to convince yourself that what you think you see on the ground corresponds to a point on the chart. If you are unsure, you should have a reasonable idea within a few miles radius, assuming you have been using a good nav cycle, and you should use your chart to relate to the ground. There will always be the risk of confirmation bias but less on the chart to ground method.

Of course, if you have been following the magenta line and it has misled you or disappeared, you will be learning a good lesson about check nav.

I think in some 30 years flying, I have only been lost once due to a host of inop nav kit, poor vis and a non-standard departure from an AG airfield which got me disorientated close to controlled airspace; a quick call to ATC sorted that.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 21:35
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In 30 years regular flying, I've got lost many more times than you, so I am MUCH more experienced in getting lost. Cz
Flying over terrain with few noticeable features, if I encounter one, I check it on the map. Often below the height where ATC can help, and dodging weather, and without GPS/VOR.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 07:10
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Originally Posted by Maoraigh1
In 30 years regular flying, I've got lost many more times than you, so I am MUCH more experienced in getting lost. Cz
Flying over terrain with few noticeable features, if I encounter one, I check it on the map. Often below the height where ATC can help, and dodging weather, and without GPS/VOR.
I bow to your much larger ummm .... bank of experience
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 20:49
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My personal experience after holding an Instructor Rating for over the 30 years is that I have yet to meet an ab initial student that benefited from using a personal computer sim program. In fact my experience is that it extended training time because I had to get the student to un learn bad habits.

However a totally different story for Instrument Rating students. I encouraged my students to use MS flight sim or equivalent. I gave them scrips to follow starting with basic figure 8 patterns moving on to more complicated patterns. The flight model of MS flight sim is so Shyte that you need a very good scan to hand fly one accurately.

Master flying one of the crap GA airplanes in the sim and you will be an ace in the real machine. Having a really solid scan is the secret to success in Instrument Rating training.
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 13:30
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Seems I am in the minority here as a big advocate for simulator use for flight training, that's however assuming you use it in the right way. I'm a great believer that a large amount of preparation on the ground before any demanding flight can take the pressure off in the air and flight sims can play a very valid part of this.

Going back 20+ years ago I first used MS Flight Sim during my PPL training, not for the physical handing aspect however purely to drill in procedures and processes. For example flying circuits, I'd fly 100's of them on the sim between lessons so that when I got back in the real aircraft the downwind checks and whole process of when to do what and at what height was drilled into my brain, one less thing to have to think about in the air.

Several years later when it came to doing my CPL I wanted my visual and Radio Nav to be spot on and was able to use FSX again with photo real scenery to practice nav routes with unknown winds so I was forced to calculate corrections and also to practice establishing my position using VOR/DME / VOR crosscuts. Yes of course I also did this in the real aircraft but I could practice it 100s of times in the sim so I was able to do it without a second thought.

Fast forward to modern day and home Flight sim technology has evolved to an unbelievable level, especially with the introduction of home VR systems giving you the ability to actually sit and look around inside the cockpit with full depth perception. The graphical capabilities of high end modern PC's are also able to produce incredible terrain and cockpit detail.

I used an example of this technology in 2016, I contacted the developers of AeroFlyFS 2 and asked them to place some pylons at Reno Stead airport to represent the Formula 1 course so I could practice ahead of the 2016 air races. They kindly did this for me and I was able to fly 100's of laps of the Formula 1 course from 5000 miles away, the terrain was so detailed I was able to pick up the scrub lines to follow and dirt roads to use as a turn in point.
This actually saved me making a complete ass of myself on my first qualifying session when I was first out on the course and 2 of the pylons had not been raised, at 50' and 250mph its very easy to get lost when you cant see the next pylon if you don't know where its supposed to be! In the end this was a great help and probably contributed to me winning the F1 Silver class despite one of the toughest fields for years.
The Aerofly guys have also made custom courses for a couple of the Red Bull guys to practice flying in VR so it really is proving its worth at all levels.

Again just this year I turned to a PC sim when I was due to re-qualify on a vintage Military Jet that I hadn't flown for 10+ years in airspace I hadn't flow in for several years.
I managed to build the exact cockpit of the real aircraft in MS Flight Simulator and was able to practice all the startup, shutdown and in flight checks and emergency procedures in the sim before getting back in the real jet.
I also downloaded the photo real scenery of the area I would be flying and used to it to fly from VRP to VRP so I knew how to find my way around visually.
End result was being 100% comfortable in the cockpit as soon as I strapped in and knowing my way around the airspace, very useful as the controllers were messing us around somewhat. I was signed off again after the 90 mins required to cover everything in the check flight despite not having seen the jet for over a decade.

So yes, for me, sims have proved to be extremely useful over the years for drilling things into my brain before taking to the air and the above are just a few examples of how I've personally benefited. I would however point out that in addition to this I keep myself very current on a wide variety of types and consider myself a pretty experienced stick and rudder guy.
No sim will every be a substitute for actual hand flying experience but i have to say some like AeroflyFS2 do a pretty decent job of it, MS flight sim certainly doesn't but still has its uses.
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 19:53
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The students we have the greatest problem with during PPL training and who generally take more than The minimum hours are flight simmers.
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Old 31st Dec 2017, 11:36
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I'm not disagreeing with Bose-X and all the instructors who cite problems teaching those who have used flight sims. It seems a pretty clear case of the "Law of Primacy", but then again there may also be an element of confirmation bias - do instructors always ask their minimum hours sky gods if they've used a simulator, or only the "problem students"? Maybe the "problem students" already have bad mindset of thinking they've got nothing to learn and so brag about the simulator use, whereas those with a better mindset don't actually mention it at all? (Personally I've never understood the fascination with "minimum hours", but that's definitely veering too far off topic for me.)

As well as primacy effects, I know for a fact there's no chance that my real flying will ever eclipse in hours the time spent on various computers and numerous simulations ranging from basic games to simulators. I started with things like Acornsoft Aviator on the BBC micro back in the early 80s. Did that teach instrument fixation - you bet, there was hardly anything to look at "out of the window"!

So using flight simulators may in some students cause a whole bunch of bad habits that are hard to train out. I don't think anyone would disagree with that would they? Bear in mind though instructors - without the enthusiasm imparted by the simulator they may not have turned up at the flight club ready to help pay your mortgage!

But back on topic (at last I hear you say!) - even if the simulators have imparted initial bad habits to a given student, it doesn't mean that happens to all. And even if it has, that's already happened by the time they present for a first lesson. The question in this thread is could someone already in training use it to help their learning? Whether or not they have learned bad habits from a simulator, could they use a simulator NOW to learn useful things?

Many of the answers seem to conflate use before lessons as entertainment to use during lessons. For many students - not all - they will have a changed mindset once they start to learn whereas before they were just playing, now they really want to learn.

Can they use some time on a pc, with a serious, ready-to-learn-not-play attitude, to learn checklist drills, circuit routines, speed/profile/up/down/dont-forget-carb-heat approach techniques, navigation, rudder pedal steering etc. As an addition to, not a replacement for, instructor time.

It seems to me that for those using it with right mindset, the answer is a pretty clear yes!
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Old 31st Dec 2017, 12:13
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I obtained my JAR PPL in 45 hours. I practiced a fair amount using MS Flight Sim. I do not recall discussing this with instructors. Thus I believe it may help or hinder depending on how it is used. I still use it if I have not flown for months, in order to refresh the neural pathways.
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Old 31st Dec 2017, 15:34
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The best simulator is a cold airplane. Sit in the parked airplane and practice your flight including moving all controls as appropriate. This is IMO a far superior method of learning checks and flows and practicing actions because you develop muscle memory by virtue of practicing in the exact actual environment you will be using the skills.

I recommended this to all students I taught. The ones that got serious about pre lesson preparation all completed their training in minimum time.

I always asked my PPL students if they used home flight sims. If they answered yes then I told them to stop.

While I am sure there is somebody out there that completed their training faster because of the use of a flight sim I can only say I have personally never seen this and talking to other instructors I have never met one who thought use of a home sim was a good idea for PPL training.
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Old 31st Dec 2017, 16:26
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It should be pretty obvious that using a driving simulator on a home pc isn't going to help anybody pass their driving test quicker, so it continues to amaze me that people think that a home pc with MS Flitesim is of any value. Sims on the pc are a game. They are for entertainment, end of story.
An earlier poster (apparently with relevant experience) says that professional SIMs even don't work well enough for basic visual flight training. I concur with this view, having tried to use more sophisticated Sims than you get at home to do that. Key things that you need visually just aren't there - like the ability to judge the height above the ground in the final stages of the landing.
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