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Logging PIC hours without signing the tech log (UK CAA)

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Logging PIC hours without signing the tech log (UK CAA)

Old 4th Dec 2017, 13:31
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Logging PIC hours without signing the tech log (UK CAA)

My friend has a share in an aircraft and said that I can use it to keep my SEP rating current, however the owner said that as I am not a shareholder I am not able to sign the tech log.

Is it still possible for me to log the hours as PIC without signing it? Obviously I would be flying as the PIC, my name would be on the flight plan and no one else would be logging the hours.
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 19:44
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Yes, all you need is a current license and class rating for the aircraft flown and endorsed on the insurance. Privately, the tech log is simply a stop gap before the aircraft log books are updated.

However, you still need someone to fill in the log after you’ve completed the flight for the interests of maintance. Perhaps this is something you should discuss with the owner as it sounds like he doesn’t want you to fly it.
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 20:13
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I don't understand what you're proposing. If it's a group owned aircraft, i.e. shared, I can't see how you can fly it on your own without being part of the group.
Or do you mean that you and your friend will fly together, he or she will sign the tech log and be flying the aircraft as a group member though in reality you will handle the controls and log it as PIC?
If the latter, you are on very dodgy ground from both insurance and legal points of view when/if you have a mishap. Sorting out who was really PIC will be fun (not).
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 20:24
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EASA requires aircraft to have insurance. P1 without insurance is illegal. Will you be covered by the aircraft insurance?
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 20:33
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Would you be permitted to fly this aircraft alone?
If not then you have your answer.
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 22:12
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I'm not so sure - but very happy to be put right.

Extreme case, if I steal a plane and fly off with it - as long as I'm type rated etc. surely I can log the time as that part of the regulations is complied with?

Some of the earlier answers suggest that every single aspect of a flight must be legal for the time to be legal - and whilst clearly a good idea (!) I'm not sure it's needed for putting hours in your logbook.
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 22:27
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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford View Post
I'm not so sure - but very happy to be put right.

Extreme case, if I steal a plane and fly off with it - as long as I'm type rated etc. surely I can log the time as that part of the regulations is complied with?

Some of the earlier answers suggest that every single aspect of a flight must be legal for the time to be legal - and whilst clearly a good idea (!) I'm not sure it's needed for putting hours in your logbook.
Every aspect of the flight needs to be legal in order for you to act as commander. Putting hours in your logbook when you are not legal is actually writing your own confession..........
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 22:33
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I would say that if you are flying as Pi/c, then you log the hours. That's not rocket science.

However.......... Why can't you sign the tech log? Who is it that you are hiding the full details of the flight from?

That seems a bit iffy to me. Who else can sign it for that flight? I take it the tech log has a box for the Pi/c to sign. Why on earth would anyone else sign for it?

Maybe you need to think on the bigger picture here. When the owner is suggesting that you do something that's clearly not right, how's the maintenance working out for that aircraft? Maybe you are not the only person not signing the tech log, maybe there are more pages than you know about. Maybe it's not about the signature, maybe he just doesn't want the hours recorded.

Remember, if there's any doubt, there's no doubt.
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 22:51
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Originally Posted by bose-x View Post
Every aspect of the flight needs to be legal in order for you to act as commander. Putting hours in your logbook when you are not legal is actually writing your own confession..........
What a shame, then, that these guys couldn't log their flight.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 02:19
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Every aspect of the flight needs to be legal in order for you to act as commander.
What a brilliant defence against any accusation of wrongdoing.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 07:25
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Whilst it might not be very bright to steal a plane and then log the flight, my point is that I think the hours would 'count'. You would be, after all, still flying the plane!

If the statement "Every aspect of the flight needs to be legal in order for you to act as commander" was true, then thousands of people are logging time illegally. The word 'every' opening the door to all sorts of (very minor in the most case) violations.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 09:08
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If they'd waited six months they could have walked across....

You can log whatever you want. Whether it would be accepted by the CAA towards the issue of a licence is another matter. There can only be one Commander on a flight, not two.

If you were flying but crashed the aircraft, the person who signed for it would have to take responsibility for it.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 09:32
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Originally Posted by jp54 View Post
My friend has a share in an aircraft and said that I can use it to keep my SEP rating current, however the owner said...
Seems to me there's more to it than who can sign/fly.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 09:32
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Thank you for all of the replies. I should have probably added more information in the first post.

The aircraft is insured for anyone with over 100hours, so insurance is not a problem. It seems that the owner is happy for my friend to book and pay for the hours as normal and then me go up flying (as PIC) with him and only me logging the hours.

The tech log is still being signed and the maintenance hours are still being recorded. I have no doubts about the integrity of the owner or the maintenance of the aircraft.

To answer the question about would I be permitted to fly the aircraft alone, I have the appropriate rating and am covered by the insurance.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 10:38
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Can someone explain the difference between what the OP is suggesting the syndicate is doing, and an aircraft rental business?

You have not mentioned cost sharing. Is your friend going to pay for your flying?

I'm still struggling with the concept of the aircraft having a single owner, yet your friend has a share in it.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 10:51
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I am not entirely sure how the whole aircraft share thing works, but from what I understand here someone has bought a plane and is selling shares in the aircraft, "shareholders" pay a monthly fee to cover maintenance and then pay per hour of flying.

As for the finances, I think there are some differences to an aircraft rental business. I would never be exchanging any money with anyone. My friend would book and pay through the normal booking system and then I would cover the fuel and landing fees.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 11:04
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Originally Posted by jp54 View Post
My friend has a share in an aircraft and said that I can use it to keep my SEP rating current, however the owner said that as I am not a shareholder I am not able to sign the tech log.

Is it still possible for me to log the hours as PIC without signing it? Obviously I would be flying as the PIC, my name would be on the flight plan and no one else would be logging the hours.
Is this "share" that your friend has, a share in a "non equity group" or a syndicate of owners?

Have a look on G-Info and see who is registered as the owner of the aircraft.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 11:15
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I think that the tech log is the wrong question.

Being insured is - that's the simple test: will the insurer, informed by the registered owner, insure you as PiC. If they will, you should be fine, if they won't, you have your answer.


That said, I suspect that the OP is not actually a PPL as "my name will be on the flight plan" is basically nonsense for most recreational flying, where flight plans aren't used.

G
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 11:34
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Originally Posted by airpolice View Post
Is this "share" that your friend has, a share in a "non equity group" or a syndicate of owners?

Have a look on G-Info and see who is registered as the owner of the aircraft.
The registered owner is someones name, trustee of G-xxxx Group.

Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer View Post
I think that the tech log is the wrong question.

Being insured is - that's the simple test: will the insurer, informed by the registered owner, insure you as PiC. If they will, you should be fine, if they won't, you have your answer.


That said, I suspect that the OP is not actually a PPL as "my name will be on the flight plan" is basically nonsense for most recreational flying, where flight plans aren't used.

G
Not that it makes much difference but the aircraft is in Spain and flight-plans will be required.
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Old 5th Dec 2017, 12:25
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Originally Posted by bose-x View Post
Every aspect of the flight needs to be legal in order for you to act as commander. Putting hours in your logbook when you are not legal is actually writing your own confession..........
Back to the discussion that with the immensely complicated regulatory environment we're now trying to play in, with almost hourly changes, it seems unlikely that very many flights are actually totally legal ...
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