Checklists -- a load of tosh
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New South Wales
Checklists -- a load of tosh
Lazy day. All the patients appear to have sodded off to the beach, so...
What do people think about checklists for the very simple aircaft we mostly fly in this forum? Personally, I think they're dangerous because they decrease your cockpit awareness. They make you go through actions in rote fashion without necessarily thinking about what you're doing.
In my latter years of flying previously, I gave up with checklists. Coming back to flying this year in a Super Cub my instructor, while acknowledging the absurdity, made me make up a checklist to use to satisfy the exam requirements. I found it distracting and anxiety-provoking because I could go through it without thinking. Since passing the test I've gone back to a left to right pre-flight check of the cockpit and am much happier.
In fact, said instructor -- 50 years in flying and still very much alive -- rarely uses a checklist himself, even up to some reasonably heavy stuff.
Throw off your checklists!
QDM
What do people think about checklists for the very simple aircaft we mostly fly in this forum? Personally, I think they're dangerous because they decrease your cockpit awareness. They make you go through actions in rote fashion without necessarily thinking about what you're doing.
In my latter years of flying previously, I gave up with checklists. Coming back to flying this year in a Super Cub my instructor, while acknowledging the absurdity, made me make up a checklist to use to satisfy the exam requirements. I found it distracting and anxiety-provoking because I could go through it without thinking. Since passing the test I've gone back to a left to right pre-flight check of the cockpit and am much happier.
In fact, said instructor -- 50 years in flying and still very much alive -- rarely uses a checklist himself, even up to some reasonably heavy stuff.
Throw off your checklists!
QDM
Joined: May 2002
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From: West Sussex, UK
They are a usefull safety net for low hour pilots who might make mistakes / forget something if they weren`t there,please don`t discourage them!!!
Personally know all the landing / after takeoff checks off by heart (save alot of frantic flicking through pages when downwind in a tricky crosswind gettting blown about)just the startup and run up checks I look up.
Personally know all the landing / after takeoff checks off by heart (save alot of frantic flicking through pages when downwind in a tricky crosswind gettting blown about)just the startup and run up checks I look up.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: England
QDM
You're treading on very dodgy ground there mate. Aircraft manufacturers/operators compile checklists for a very good reason. One very good reason is that one aircraft can be very similar to another one but can have totally different systems ie Piper Cherokee family. I would wager that EVERY pilot who's ever landed wheels up wished he'd stuck to a check list - no matter how simple or noddy.
Contrary to what you might think about checklists being a hinderance to your flying, used correctly and they free up a lot of capacity. The reason why it's always a good idea to commit certain parts of the checklist to memory (engine fire/failure) is that you don't have to think about what you are doing, you do it automatically whilst leaving all that unused capacity to deal with FLYING THE AIRCRAFT. Another reason is that it stops those embarrassing situations like trying to taxi clear of the runway with the wheels tucked neatly in the wells.
Give it a bit more thought next time.
You're treading on very dodgy ground there mate. Aircraft manufacturers/operators compile checklists for a very good reason. One very good reason is that one aircraft can be very similar to another one but can have totally different systems ie Piper Cherokee family. I would wager that EVERY pilot who's ever landed wheels up wished he'd stuck to a check list - no matter how simple or noddy.
Contrary to what you might think about checklists being a hinderance to your flying, used correctly and they free up a lot of capacity. The reason why it's always a good idea to commit certain parts of the checklist to memory (engine fire/failure) is that you don't have to think about what you are doing, you do it automatically whilst leaving all that unused capacity to deal with FLYING THE AIRCRAFT. Another reason is that it stops those embarrassing situations like trying to taxi clear of the runway with the wheels tucked neatly in the wells.
Give it a bit more thought next time.
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: UK
I use a checklist for the external and pre-/post-start stuff but have tried to commit to memory the inflight & emergency stuff.
I just wonder if/when I every try a retractable, I'll sail through the "Brakes off, undercarriage down..." bit on downwind and not actually do anything, just like I do in my 172.
I'll always keep a checklist with me and annotate it with my own personal bits.
I just wonder if/when I every try a retractable, I'll sail through the "Brakes off, undercarriage down..." bit on downwind and not actually do anything, just like I do in my 172.
I'll always keep a checklist with me and annotate it with my own personal bits.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New South Wales
I'm not saying never use them, just that in relatively simple aircraft I feel they can hinder more than they help. It feels stupid to be using one in a Super Cub, or even a C 172. It encourages mindless flying.
You can go through a written checklist without thinking at all about what you've done. It's like that feeling of leaving the house and then wondering if you've locked the door. In the end, you always have, but you can't remember doing it. I never have that feeling if I do a left to right cockpit check of all the relevant bits and bobs.
Anyway, I knew this would draw some response.
QDM
You can go through a written checklist without thinking at all about what you've done. It's like that feeling of leaving the house and then wondering if you've locked the door. In the end, you always have, but you can't remember doing it. I never have that feeling if I do a left to right cockpit check of all the relevant bits and bobs.
Anyway, I knew this would draw some response.
QDM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 379
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From: Sale
A recent thread "digressed" into a discussion on this very subject.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ist+memory+ppl
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ist+memory+ppl
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
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From: Vancouver Island
Oh boy QDM:
You are really going to have a lot of flack come down on you now.
So when you need someone on your side I will jump in.
Students today are taught and churned out like Pavlov's dogs,
in a Cookie Cutter assembly line.
The core of the problem is more complex, involving Lawyers who force manufactures to add even more and more items to be checked and Instructors brainwashed into beleiving what they teach.
Really sad situation when a student is forced to concentrate on a check list in say a Cessna 150 / 172 down wind that has more items than a Super Connie or the Space Shuttle.
How more bizzare can you get than to check the master switch on when you are talking to each other on the intercom?
So I am with you on this.
Cat Driver
You are really going to have a lot of flack come down on you now.
So when you need someone on your side I will jump in.
Students today are taught and churned out like Pavlov's dogs,
in a Cookie Cutter assembly line.
The core of the problem is more complex, involving Lawyers who force manufactures to add even more and more items to be checked and Instructors brainwashed into beleiving what they teach.
Really sad situation when a student is forced to concentrate on a check list in say a Cessna 150 / 172 down wind that has more items than a Super Connie or the Space Shuttle.
How more bizzare can you get than to check the master switch on when you are talking to each other on the intercom?
So I am with you on this.
Cat Driver
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
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From: Bournemouth
Personally, I believe that standard check-lists which work across several types are very useful.
The Super Cub I used to fly didn't have retractable undercarriage, but I still used to call out "undercarriage down" as part of the check-list. Now I fly a Europa, and I use exactly the same downwind check-list as the Super Cub, including "undercarriage down". I also call out "mixture rich" and "carb heat on", even though my aircraft doesn't have a mixture or a carb heat control - but by not dropping them from my check-list, I know that I'll be able to move to other types and still use the same check-list.
I used to occassionally start the Super Cub without using a check-list - only ever when I was taxying it, not when I was planning to fly it. I have to admit having forgotten the odd item or two once or twice - I think I forgot to turn the master switch on once, and forgot to prime it once. No big deal when taxying, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it for flying. All you need to do is forget to set the trim for take-off, and then stall as soon as the aircraft has enough speed to lift itself off the ground, and you'll regret it
Someone's gone to the trouble of preparing these things, so why not use them? IMHO.
FFF
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The Super Cub I used to fly didn't have retractable undercarriage, but I still used to call out "undercarriage down" as part of the check-list. Now I fly a Europa, and I use exactly the same downwind check-list as the Super Cub, including "undercarriage down". I also call out "mixture rich" and "carb heat on", even though my aircraft doesn't have a mixture or a carb heat control - but by not dropping them from my check-list, I know that I'll be able to move to other types and still use the same check-list.
I used to occassionally start the Super Cub without using a check-list - only ever when I was taxying it, not when I was planning to fly it. I have to admit having forgotten the odd item or two once or twice - I think I forgot to turn the master switch on once, and forgot to prime it once. No big deal when taxying, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it for flying. All you need to do is forget to set the trim for take-off, and then stall as soon as the aircraft has enough speed to lift itself off the ground, and you'll regret it
Someone's gone to the trouble of preparing these things, so why not use them? IMHO.FFF
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New South Wales
I think I forgot to turn the master switch on once, and forgot to prime it once. No big deal when taxying, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it for flying.
Difficult to get flying if you don't switch the master on or prime a cold engine. You soon figure out the mistake when nothing much happens up front.
As for the trim, do a left to right cockpit check of all the knobs and instruments. You won't miss the trim -- it's down there below the mags and carb heat and fuel selector, just above the flap lever.
Much better than a written checklist in a Super Cub, IMHO.
QDM
Joined: May 2001
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From: 75N 16E
Yep, checks should be run through from memory, then the checklist should be brought out and scanned through just to make sure there are no obvious errors. Otherwise you get the checklist 'parrot'....T's and P's are green ....but are they? I've found myself sprouting cr@p from the card, just becasue its written down. Much better to know and understand the checks rather than rely on the card, or else, when the sh@t hits the fan, you're scrambling around looking for the right section blah blah...
And don't forget 'Final's clear, check the gear'.....
By the way, when I was on Australia, I flew from Adelaide to Port Lincoln in a C421 (in the RHS as a passenger)....The pilot had a really cool checklist which was basically a strip inside a box with a clear window. When doing the checks, he just scrolled through them by winding a knob, so the checklist was always in the right position for the next phase of flight. When he landed and shut down, he just wound it back. He had this stuck to the dashboard, and it struck me as being a very good idea. Anyone know who makes these and where to get them?
Cheers
EA
And don't forget 'Final's clear, check the gear'.....
By the way, when I was on Australia, I flew from Adelaide to Port Lincoln in a C421 (in the RHS as a passenger)....The pilot had a really cool checklist which was basically a strip inside a box with a clear window. When doing the checks, he just scrolled through them by winding a knob, so the checklist was always in the right position for the next phase of flight. When he landed and shut down, he just wound it back. He had this stuck to the dashboard, and it struck me as being a very good idea. Anyone know who makes these and where to get them?
Cheers
EA
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
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From: Canada
Well QDMQDMQDM you are not alone in your dislike of checklists for simple aircraft. There is an article on "AvWeb" entitled "throw away that stupid checklist", which supports and elaborates on the points that you made. It's available at www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch/pelp0001.html
I agree with englishal's method.
MLS-12D
I agree with englishal's method.
MLS-12D
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
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From: Vancouver Island
Vortime:
Here in British Columbia they have that on some check lists for the C150/52/72 aircraft.
In fact I would hazard a guess that excessively long check lists are used to run up the hobbs time. ( though not down wind of course )
And once more remember I have owned and operated a flight school both fixed and rotary wing. My opinions and comments are partly molded by having experienced the system from an owners viewpoint.
Cat Driver
Here in British Columbia they have that on some check lists for the C150/52/72 aircraft.
In fact I would hazard a guess that excessively long check lists are used to run up the hobbs time. ( though not down wind of course )
And once more remember I have owned and operated a flight school both fixed and rotary wing. My opinions and comments are partly molded by having experienced the system from an owners viewpoint.
Cat Driver
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
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From: Canada
The second article to which
QDMQDMQDM refers is "checklists redux", and is available at
www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch/pelp0002.html
QDMQDMQDM refers is "checklists redux", and is available at
www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch/pelp0002.html
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
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From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
I agree about the over use of written checklists.
Using nmemonics or flow pattern are still a forms of checklists, however.
In a previous CP/CFI job our school taught from 1st flight up to night & CPL to do things from memory or through some logical pattern.
Even when tested by external or Authority examiners no student was ever clipped for doing so. The reason? Because the system worked. It just wasn't necessary to have a written checklist to tell you to switch the master on etc...
I've swapped between numerous GA types & have never found the need to follow a written checklist for normal ops or immediate actions for abnormals/emergencies.
Different matter if fault finding some electrical gremlin & the like or making sure that all subsequent actions are completed.
In my current job written checklists aren't used in the normal day-to-day work. There are only a limited number of items that need to be remembered.
What's next? A written checklist to remind us to get in?
Using nmemonics or flow pattern are still a forms of checklists, however.
In a previous CP/CFI job our school taught from 1st flight up to night & CPL to do things from memory or through some logical pattern.
Even when tested by external or Authority examiners no student was ever clipped for doing so. The reason? Because the system worked. It just wasn't necessary to have a written checklist to tell you to switch the master on etc...
I've swapped between numerous GA types & have never found the need to follow a written checklist for normal ops or immediate actions for abnormals/emergencies.
Different matter if fault finding some electrical gremlin & the like or making sure that all subsequent actions are completed.
In my current job written checklists aren't used in the normal day-to-day work. There are only a limited number of items that need to be remembered.
What's next? A written checklist to remind us to get in?
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Vancouver Island
I agree memory checks of the truly important safety items such as fuel on correct tank and sufficient, trims set and controls free are the important things to do before every take off..
When landing I use a slightly different memory check just prior to landing.
Turning final I always once more ask my self, where am I landing and where is my gear? I always do that both fixed wing and rotary wing.
P.S.
When in Britain I do this memory check when turning finals.
The reason being that turning finals exposes me to at least twice the risk as turning final.
Cat Driver
When landing I use a slightly different memory check just prior to landing.
Turning final I always once more ask my self, where am I landing and where is my gear? I always do that both fixed wing and rotary wing.
P.S.
When in Britain I do this memory check when turning finals.
The reason being that turning finals exposes me to at least twice the risk as turning final.
Cat Driver
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 546
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From: europe
I was taught a comprehensive mental check list years ago which still seems to work fine. Various complexities have been added to it but they all seem to be able to be fitted into the rhythm of the checks.
The important thing with mental checks is if you are interrupted, start again from the beginning.
I personally find trying to use a check list is more disruptive than the mental method.
With an unfamiliar airplane, a checklist is definitely required until its pecularities are firmly slotted into the mental routine.
The important thing with mental checks is if you are interrupted, start again from the beginning.
I personally find trying to use a check list is more disruptive than the mental method.
With an unfamiliar airplane, a checklist is definitely required until its pecularities are firmly slotted into the mental routine.