Checklists -- a load of tosh
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QDM
Manufacturers checklists are not a load of tosh, but some of the third party versions for PA28s etc give you the full 747 experience ... e.g. tasks such as checking the full and free movement of the trim wheel are duplicated or even triplicated! This gives checklists bad name generally.
The really important thing to understand is the difference between systems and procedures between individual types and this comes from the POH and the associated checklist.
I will give you a very simple instance of this. Take a Pup or a Bulldog fly it using a PA28 checklist. It is very similar apart from some crucial details.
If you inadvertently fly a tank dry by following the PA28 procedures on flying on Left or Right rather than Both, you may need to use the starter motor.
Carb heat on (Pup), Master on, Mags on, Fuel on other tank, Fuel pump on etc ... Hit the start button and nothing happens.
Why? Because the Pups and Bulldogs have a quirk - a starter master switch that needs to be selected on too.
This has caused at least one aircraft I know to be force landed (safely) as during considerable stress the pilot regressed to prior PA28 experience and performed all the emergency checks impeccably save the master start switch, which isolates the starter motor.
I know my checklists from memory, although I tend to follw the list through on the ground as it does no harm.
However the main point QDM is to know the differences between types and sub types and always to remember which one you are in at the time!
I'd rather rely on a thorough knowledge of the procedures for each type I fly than on Bacon Saver AOA devices!!!!
Manufacturers checklists are not a load of tosh, but some of the third party versions for PA28s etc give you the full 747 experience ... e.g. tasks such as checking the full and free movement of the trim wheel are duplicated or even triplicated! This gives checklists bad name generally.
The really important thing to understand is the difference between systems and procedures between individual types and this comes from the POH and the associated checklist.
I will give you a very simple instance of this. Take a Pup or a Bulldog fly it using a PA28 checklist. It is very similar apart from some crucial details.
If you inadvertently fly a tank dry by following the PA28 procedures on flying on Left or Right rather than Both, you may need to use the starter motor.
Carb heat on (Pup), Master on, Mags on, Fuel on other tank, Fuel pump on etc ... Hit the start button and nothing happens.
Why? Because the Pups and Bulldogs have a quirk - a starter master switch that needs to be selected on too.
This has caused at least one aircraft I know to be force landed (safely) as during considerable stress the pilot regressed to prior PA28 experience and performed all the emergency checks impeccably save the master start switch, which isolates the starter motor.
I know my checklists from memory, although I tend to follw the list through on the ground as it does no harm.
However the main point QDM is to know the differences between types and sub types and always to remember which one you are in at the time!
I'd rather rely on a thorough knowledge of the procedures for each type I fly than on Bacon Saver AOA devices!!!!
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 21st July 2002 at 06:42.
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From: New South Wales
However the main point QDM is to know the differences between types and sub types and always to remember which one you are in at the time!
This has caused at least one aircraft I know to be force landed (safely) as during considerable stress the pilot regressed to prior PA28 experience and performed all the emergency checks impeccably save the master start switch, which isolates the starter motor.
I'd rather rely on a thorough knowledge of the procedures for each type I fly than on Bacon Saver AOA devices
QDM
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QDM
Sense of humour lapse? I put the "winky smily" in front of the sentence to show it was tongue in cheek and not a serious comment.
You make a pretty dogmatic comment about not using a written checklist after engine failure in a single.
I wasn't advocating that if you re-read my post, but I would challenge your view in this particular context, as the quick reference to the six or seven vital steps on a checklist would have enabled an air start, which in my opinion would have been much safer than a forced landing, no matter how well executed.
However, the real point is that one needs to be able to apply the right procedures for the right aircraft. There are different ways of doing this as the other posters have illustrated.
My asnwer to your question remains, offical checklists are not tosh.
Sense of humour lapse? I put the "winky smily" in front of the sentence to show it was tongue in cheek and not a serious comment.
You make a pretty dogmatic comment about not using a written checklist after engine failure in a single.
I wasn't advocating that if you re-read my post, but I would challenge your view in this particular context, as the quick reference to the six or seven vital steps on a checklist would have enabled an air start, which in my opinion would have been much safer than a forced landing, no matter how well executed.
However, the real point is that one needs to be able to apply the right procedures for the right aircraft. There are different ways of doing this as the other posters have illustrated.
My asnwer to your question remains, offical checklists are not tosh.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 21st July 2002 at 09:46.
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From: europe
GRP
Trim figures twice in mental checks:
1. After unlocking subject aircraft, wind trim fully back and fully forward while observing the tab, which is more easily seen from outside the aircraft. Leave trim in take off position.Rest of pre flights follow.
2. Pretakeoff checks TTMMPPFFGGHH and anything you care to add, trim set for takeoff is the first item.
Written check lists have their uses when dealing with unfamiliar aircraft, used in conjunction with the aircraft manual, but in my experience are disruptive when single pilot on familiar types.
Each to his own of course.
Trim figures twice in mental checks:
1. After unlocking subject aircraft, wind trim fully back and fully forward while observing the tab, which is more easily seen from outside the aircraft. Leave trim in take off position.Rest of pre flights follow.
2. Pretakeoff checks TTMMPPFFGGHH and anything you care to add, trim set for takeoff is the first item.
Written check lists have their uses when dealing with unfamiliar aircraft, used in conjunction with the aircraft manual, but in my experience are disruptive when single pilot on familiar types.
Each to his own of course.
High Flying Bird
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From: Old Sarum ish
The subject of to checklist or not to checklist always generates heated response! Personally I don't fly often enough that I would feel comfortable trying to do it without. The external checks I don't use a checklist for though. Far better to keep your hands and eyes free to check everything over.
Whether or not you use a checklist, it's not going to help anyone if you mutter 'charge' without actually checking you have one. I was taught to touch each item as I went through the list, and check everything's in the green.
The in-flight checks I have memorised. None of them are so complicated that anything is likely to be missed. Especially not if you use common sense - by the time you're holding your PPL in your hand it's obvious what you should check if you have an engine failure.
However it is worth getting a good checklist for whichever aircraft you're flying. I've just done my Cherokee check out, and looked at a few difference checklists until I finally found one I was happy with. Even so, I've added bits and taken out bits so I'm happy with what it says, and that I won't forget anything.
Whether or not you use a checklist, it's not going to help anyone if you mutter 'charge' without actually checking you have one. I was taught to touch each item as I went through the list, and check everything's in the green.
The in-flight checks I have memorised. None of them are so complicated that anything is likely to be missed. Especially not if you use common sense - by the time you're holding your PPL in your hand it's obvious what you should check if you have an engine failure.
However it is worth getting a good checklist for whichever aircraft you're flying. I've just done my Cherokee check out, and looked at a few difference checklists until I finally found one I was happy with. Even so, I've added bits and taken out bits so I'm happy with what it says, and that I won't forget anything.
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AerBabe
Glad to hear you are trying the PA28.
Couple of things you may wish to consider....
Cherokees are notorious for being available with many subtle difference as an earlier poster noted - so it's worth checking the POH for each individual a/c you fly and reviewing your checklist in that context ... e.g. some of the 140s start on left mag only, some 180s have a rpm range restriction ion the cruise (although the tacho should be marked anyway.)
Secondly, the AIIB may look at the checklist used in the event of an incident and comment in their report, so best to make sure that it aligns exactly with the POH and any amendments to it just in case.
Glad to hear you are trying the PA28.
Couple of things you may wish to consider....
Cherokees are notorious for being available with many subtle difference as an earlier poster noted - so it's worth checking the POH for each individual a/c you fly and reviewing your checklist in that context ... e.g. some of the 140s start on left mag only, some 180s have a rpm range restriction ion the cruise (although the tacho should be marked anyway.)
Secondly, the AIIB may look at the checklist used in the event of an incident and comment in their report, so best to make sure that it aligns exactly with the POH and any amendments to it just in case.
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From: New South Wales
Sense of humour lapse? I put the "winky smily" in front of the sentence to show it was tongue in cheek and not a serious comment.
I maintain, though, that looking in a written checklist after the donkey has checked out ain't clever. For a start, if it's carb icing by the time you've got to carb heat in your checklist all the heat will have gone out of the exhaust manifold.
QDM
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: England
It's best if you learn the checks completely off by heart then when you're remembering what you have to check you have to think about it rather than just skip across a page. It's quicker too. Less awkard as well.
PPRuNe Engineering Dept Apprentice
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From: Deep in the boglands of Western Ireland
I'll admit I've never sat in the left seat (for want of money, nothing else!) But I do have a commanding experience of checklists. A nice idea is to put a question mark after every item on the list. so instead of "Gear Down" it's "Gear Down?", flick the switch, be sure it worked, and then "Yup". And something I think we all do it with checklists (and if you don't then DO!) is say it out loud (yes even when on your own).
As for memorised checklists, I'd say have the list open on your lap for safety, and add an extra thing onto the list. "anything forgotten?" where you give a quick look down to your checklist and count the steps
Another good idea is numbering the steps as well.
These are nowt but things I've done at my work, be it at study, or shop management
As for memorised checklists, I'd say have the list open on your lap for safety, and add an extra thing onto the list. "anything forgotten?" where you give a quick look down to your checklist and count the steps
Another good idea is numbering the steps as well.
These are nowt but things I've done at my work, be it at study, or shop management
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QDM
I agree that in the event of engine failure or rough running in a carburettor single, the first instinctive reaction should be to select heat on whilst there is still some residual heat available, although I wouldn't hold my breath as carb heat is designed to work at high rpm and may not be effective after the engine has stopped.
I agree that in the event of engine failure or rough running in a carburettor single, the first instinctive reaction should be to select heat on whilst there is still some residual heat available, although I wouldn't hold my breath as carb heat is designed to work at high rpm and may not be effective after the engine has stopped.
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From: New South Wales
QDM - External and inflight aside, are you saying that any other kind of checklist is also tosh? i.e. "Checklists are [always] tosh?"
My original post referred to the 'simple aircraft most of us fly in this forum'. For simple aircraft using a written checklist internally can anaesthetise the brain and lead to automaticity. Naturally, on more complex types or twin crew operation it's a different story, but there's no point making something simple more complicated.
QDM
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From: too near London
If the motor is not turning over ie prop not windmilling then alternate hot air is not going to make any difference. Surely in a single the first job is to enter the glide and look forward to the landing, suitable sites having been noted as you proceeded up to that point? Unless you routinely fly at 10000 ft, of course. Completing that nice emergency checklist underground could well ruin your day.
Anyway, aren't we talking about SIMPLE types? A Supercub can obviously be flown quite easily with all vitals committed to memory, but if a checklist makes you feel more confident, especially if you don't fly very often, then so be it.
However, if you needed a checklist to fly something like a J3 cub then I'm afraid you could quite properly be considered a Divvy
Anyway, aren't we talking about SIMPLE types? A Supercub can obviously be flown quite easily with all vitals committed to memory, but if a checklist makes you feel more confident, especially if you don't fly very often, then so be it.
However, if you needed a checklist to fly something like a J3 cub then I'm afraid you could quite properly be considered a Divvy
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non radio
I was referring to an engine failure with the prop windmilling, but even that is unlikely to benefit from carb heat IMHO.
However, the other vital actions may result in a restart when trimmed in the glide and field selected, which is why the manufacturers checklist should be used at that stage from memory or otherwise.
I was referring to an engine failure with the prop windmilling, but even that is unlikely to benefit from carb heat IMHO.
However, the other vital actions may result in a restart when trimmed in the glide and field selected, which is why the manufacturers checklist should be used at that stage from memory or otherwise.
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From: too near London
F3G: can't disagree with that!
In my case during the 4 occaisons when I thought engine problems were going to end in a forced landing, I can say that I had my landing area and approach plan sorted before I did anything else and I believe reading a checklist would have been inappropriate. 5000',1000', 1800', and 400' AGL in case you're wondering and only one required a forced landing without power.
Therefore, I would take a punt and say use of a written checklist would be inadvisable below, say, 3000'(?) but committing to memory an engine failure drill to memory is a bl@@dy good idea at any height!!
In my case during the 4 occaisons when I thought engine problems were going to end in a forced landing, I can say that I had my landing area and approach plan sorted before I did anything else and I believe reading a checklist would have been inappropriate. 5000',1000', 1800', and 400' AGL in case you're wondering and only one required a forced landing without power.
Therefore, I would take a punt and say use of a written checklist would be inadvisable below, say, 3000'(?) but committing to memory an engine failure drill to memory is a bl@@dy good idea at any height!!
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From: Vancouver Island
Carb ice does not cause a sudden engine failure, there will be a noticeable loss of power ( loss of RPM fixed pitch prop - Loss of manifold pressure constant speed prop. ) preceeding complete failure.
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Chuck
You are quite correct, but it is surprising how it can creep up on an unattentive pilot at say +18C on a humid day.
I tend to cycle 1 min of carb heat every 5 on the Pup, as the RR Continental 0-200 can suffer a bit.
Have you firmed up any plans to fly the Cat from hangar 4 yet?
Best wishes F3G
You are quite correct, but it is surprising how it can creep up on an unattentive pilot at say +18C on a humid day.
I tend to cycle 1 min of carb heat every 5 on the Pup, as the RR Continental 0-200 can suffer a bit.
Have you firmed up any plans to fly the Cat from hangar 4 yet?
Best wishes F3G
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From: Vancouver Island
Yes I agree the 0200 just loves to make carb ice, especially in humid areas such as we both live in.
I will be at EGSX on July 28 and we should be ready for flight tests somewhere after that.
If you live near just go over and ask Clive or Mark Edwards, they are working on it now.
Chuck
I will be at EGSX on July 28 and we should be ready for flight tests somewhere after that.
If you live near just go over and ask Clive or Mark Edwards, they are working on it now.
Chuck
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From: London
QDM - So you did.
How often do you fly?
If you got in with someone else, and they didn't use a checklist for the internals, would any scenario bother you? If they flew every day, I assume not, how about a weekly flyer, a monthly flyer?
How about someone like me who (until I did a dual refresher on Saturday) had gone 3 months with neither time on type or any P1 at all.
Just trying to prod your limits - cos' I don't believe you really mean no-one needs checklists.
How often do you fly?
If you got in with someone else, and they didn't use a checklist for the internals, would any scenario bother you? If they flew every day, I assume not, how about a weekly flyer, a monthly flyer?
How about someone like me who (until I did a dual refresher on Saturday) had gone 3 months with neither time on type or any P1 at all.
Just trying to prod your limits - cos' I don't believe you really mean no-one needs checklists.