Glasgow ATC to ban zone transits in July and August
Better red than ...
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From: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
Wick have a notamed closure of the field/ATZ for the week due lack of controllers (this is a combined tower/approach with no radar). Perhaps everybody has been reassigned to support the bigger sites?
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: LHR/EGLL
Before someone could control 'solo' at Glasgow would probably take six months (I'm guessing here) of training, possibly more.
Last edited by Gonzo; 3rd July 2017 at 08:07. Reason: added text
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From: Dreamland
Wick have a notamed closure of the field/ATZ for the week due lack of controllers
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From: Wildest Surrey
Joined: Sep 2010
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From: Home away from home
I think Gonzo's post is missing a negative. Wick is controlled by HIAL (I think?), Glasgow is controlled by NATS. It is definitly not the same ANSP at the two.
Although controllers could move between the two, it would be the "old fashioned" way of resigning at Wick and starting a new job with a new employer at Glasgow, or the other way around.
Although controllers could move between the two, it would be the "old fashioned" way of resigning at Wick and starting a new job with a new employer at Glasgow, or the other way around.
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,447
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From: Wildest Surrey
I think Gonzo's post is missing a negative. Wick is controlled by HIAL (I think?), Glasgow is controlled by NATS. It is definitly not the same ANSP at the two.
Although controllers could move between the two, it would be the "old fashioned" way of resigning at Wick and starting a new job with a new employer at Glasgow, or the other way around.
Although controllers could move between the two, it would be the "old fashioned" way of resigning at Wick and starting a new job with a new employer at Glasgow, or the other way around.
When NATS still owned the H & I Airports, they naturally provided ATC at all of them too and 'leave reliefs' were assigned to each airport from the larger NATS units in Scotland eg Glasgow did Stornoway, Aberdeen did Sumburgh and I dare say a relief was assigned to Wick too. Additionally under the 'old' ATCO Cadet training system, cadets who had qualified at a 'major' unit in Scotland whether airport or control centre/radar unit were sent on 4 week detachments to H & I airports; when I 'validated' at Glasgow on a monday, I was told 'pack your bags, here is a travel warrant, report to Sumburgh on Wednesday'. Yeah, 2 days notice, sort of initiative test!
Of course this 'pool' of controllers is not available to HIAL since they and NATS 'divorced' so other means of coping with staff shortages such as short term closures or downgrade to AFIS must be resorted to.
NATS controllers down south also did leave reliefs eg LATCC controllers did Kent Radar (Manston) and Farnborough controllers did Llanbedr.
Last edited by chevvron; 3rd July 2017 at 08:48.
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From: LHR/EGLL
Sorry, I should have added a bit more clarity to my post.
The post I was quoting seemed to imply that it was possbile for controllers working for one ANSP (HIAL) to be 'redeployed' to Glasgow (NATS) to address what is claimed (even though the NOTAM makes no reference to it) to be a shortage of staff.
This wouldn't address any shortage in the short to medium term as any Wick controller would have to be trained to validation at Glasgow. One just can't turn up at a brand new airport and start controlling.
It's the same as thinking an ATPL with experience on Twin Otters can jump straight into a 787 and start flying it with no further training.
My post was trying to articulate that this redeployment en mass wouldn't happen now between two airports of the same ANSP company, let alone between two of different ANSP companies.
The only way a Wick ATCO would end up at Glasgow is if they resigned and applied to a vacancy within NATS.
The post I was quoting seemed to imply that it was possbile for controllers working for one ANSP (HIAL) to be 'redeployed' to Glasgow (NATS) to address what is claimed (even though the NOTAM makes no reference to it) to be a shortage of staff.
This wouldn't address any shortage in the short to medium term as any Wick controller would have to be trained to validation at Glasgow. One just can't turn up at a brand new airport and start controlling.
It's the same as thinking an ATPL with experience on Twin Otters can jump straight into a 787 and start flying it with no further training.
My post was trying to articulate that this redeployment en mass wouldn't happen now between two airports of the same ANSP company, let alone between two of different ANSP companies.
The only way a Wick ATCO would end up at Glasgow is if they resigned and applied to a vacancy within NATS.
Last edited by Gonzo; 3rd July 2017 at 12:32.
Joined: Jul 2017
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From: Tours
Funny that LAX Tower with only 40 qualified guys still accepts hundreds of VFR operations in one the busiest airspace in the world. Glasgow ATC on the learning path ? Take a trip to America and learn the job !
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From: Strathaven Airfield
Closure confirmed.
Here is aletter from Glasgow ATC received this morning.
I have quite a few comments to make on this, but will refrain from posting here until I make an official reply on behalf of Strathaven Airfield.
Dear all,
At Glasgow, we have always been supportive of the need to provide the best service we can to users within and around our airspace. Although we would like that to continue the priority for ATC at Glasgow must be to provide a safe and effective service to commercial flights into or outbound from Glasgow airport, the number of which has grown steadily over the past few years.
This summer ATC at Glasgow has lost several key members of the ATC team and, although we have recruited replacements, the training required to achieve the required level of competence will take time. As a result of this we have fewer controllers than required and will not be able to open as many operational positions.
What this means to you, is that you may not get the service you are used to from Glasgow or any service at all in some instances. You can help us to help you by…
Planning to fly around the Glasgow Control Zone, squawking 2620, and listening out on 119.1Mhz , any aircraft requesting a zone transit must call ATC on 0141 840 8029 at least 30 minutes before departure , and pass details of the flight, but it is unlikely that we will be able to accommodate your request, alternatively you can contact Scottish FIR on 119.875Mhz for a Basic Service.
We understand that this will not be great news for you to read, but we believe that being open and up front about the challenges that we face will help you to plan your excursions and get the most out your aircraft.
I wish you a summer of good flying.
Regards…
Tom Kirkhope
General Manager ATS (Glasgow)
Here is aletter from Glasgow ATC received this morning.
I have quite a few comments to make on this, but will refrain from posting here until I make an official reply on behalf of Strathaven Airfield.
Dear all,
At Glasgow, we have always been supportive of the need to provide the best service we can to users within and around our airspace. Although we would like that to continue the priority for ATC at Glasgow must be to provide a safe and effective service to commercial flights into or outbound from Glasgow airport, the number of which has grown steadily over the past few years.
This summer ATC at Glasgow has lost several key members of the ATC team and, although we have recruited replacements, the training required to achieve the required level of competence will take time. As a result of this we have fewer controllers than required and will not be able to open as many operational positions.
What this means to you, is that you may not get the service you are used to from Glasgow or any service at all in some instances. You can help us to help you by…
Planning to fly around the Glasgow Control Zone, squawking 2620, and listening out on 119.1Mhz , any aircraft requesting a zone transit must call ATC on 0141 840 8029 at least 30 minutes before departure , and pass details of the flight, but it is unlikely that we will be able to accommodate your request, alternatively you can contact Scottish FIR on 119.875Mhz for a Basic Service.
We understand that this will not be great news for you to read, but we believe that being open and up front about the challenges that we face will help you to plan your excursions and get the most out your aircraft.
I wish you a summer of good flying.
Regards…
Tom Kirkhope
General Manager ATS (Glasgow)
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,447
Likes: 367
From: Wildest Surrey
LAX controllers only do tower and GMC, radar approach control for the 4 runways being done from South California Terminal Control whereas Glasgow controllers do Approach and approach radar as well as tower and GMC.
There are also established 'victor' routes which can be used by transits at LAX.
I don't know what operational hours US controllers are allowed to work; controllers in the UK can work a maximum 10 hours operational duty and must take a minimum 30 min break for every 2 hours of operational duty hence to keep 4 control positions open needs 6 controllers.
Last edited by chevvron; 3rd July 2017 at 16:34.
Joined: May 2011
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From: Glasgow
So they normally need 6 people to keep 4 positions open?
Positions being: Ground; Tower; Approach/Radar; and an assistant?
I'm guessing that on reduced staff they combine ground and tower (like they do at night normally anyway) so the tower controller no longer has capacity to fill in the electronic board when you call up "blind" (watching them do this is painful - based GA traffic have their own "shortcuts" on the board but it takes time and is distracting to use a pen to select in all the details of new traffic) while if you phone an assistant can have the virtual "strip" ready to go.
I wonder how long it takes the assistant to fill in the details - I wonder if I could phone up while airborne. I also wonder if they could hook the board into Mode-S, so the board could be ready with a shortcut for any detected aircraft?
Glasgow has (in the past) been great for me too - I've had no issue with previous transits.
Positions being: Ground; Tower; Approach/Radar; and an assistant?
I'm guessing that on reduced staff they combine ground and tower (like they do at night normally anyway) so the tower controller no longer has capacity to fill in the electronic board when you call up "blind" (watching them do this is painful - based GA traffic have their own "shortcuts" on the board but it takes time and is distracting to use a pen to select in all the details of new traffic) while if you phone an assistant can have the virtual "strip" ready to go.
I wonder how long it takes the assistant to fill in the details - I wonder if I could phone up while airborne. I also wonder if they could hook the board into Mode-S, so the board could be ready with a shortcut for any detected aircraft?
Glasgow has (in the past) been great for me too - I've had no issue with previous transits.
Joined: Mar 2017
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From: Newick
I know this is a very serious matter for GA in the vicinity, but my dyslexia saw ".....plan your incursion...!
On a broader note I detect a theme repeated across a number of ATSUs not having sufficient staff to provide the levels of service previously given.
I wonder if a new thread about the national situation might prove enlightening?
On a broader note I detect a theme repeated across a number of ATSUs not having sufficient staff to provide the levels of service previously given.
I wonder if a new thread about the national situation might prove enlightening?
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,827
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From: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Strange isn't it how we managed several decades ago to have enough ATCOs at regional airports to provide a service to lots of GA as well as commercial services. Of course in those days the ATC provider was a public body. Now it's effectively run by the airlines.
Time to question the philosophy that every human activity should pay for itself and there's no room for non-commercial activity?
Time to question the philosophy that every human activity should pay for itself and there's no room for non-commercial activity?
Joined: May 2007
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From: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Closure confirmed.
Here is aletter from Glasgow ATC received this morning.
I have quite a few comments to make on this, but will refrain from posting here until I make an official reply on behalf of Strathaven Airfield.
Dear all,
At Glasgow, we have always been supportive of the need to provide the best service we can to users within and around our airspace. Although we would like that to continue the priority for ATC at Glasgow must be to provide a safe and effective service to commercial flights into or outbound from Glasgow airport, the number of which has grown steadily over the past few years.
This summer ATC at Glasgow has lost several key members of the ATC team and, although we have recruited replacements, the training required to achieve the required level of competence will take time. As a result of this we have fewer controllers than required and will not be able to open as many operational positions.
What this means to you, is that you may not get the service you are used to from Glasgow or any service at all in some instances. You can help us to help you by…
Planning to fly around the Glasgow Control Zone, squawking 2620, and listening out on 119.1Mhz , any aircraft requesting a zone transit must call ATC on 0141 840 8029 at least 30 minutes before departure , and pass details of the flight, but it is unlikely that we will be able to accommodate your request, alternatively you can contact Scottish FIR on 119.875Mhz for a Basic Service.
We understand that this will not be great news for you to read, but we believe that being open and up front about the challenges that we face will help you to plan your excursions and get the most out your aircraft.
I wish you a summer of good flying.
Regards…
Tom Kirkhope
General Manager ATS (Glasgow)
Here is aletter from Glasgow ATC received this morning.
I have quite a few comments to make on this, but will refrain from posting here until I make an official reply on behalf of Strathaven Airfield.
Dear all,
At Glasgow, we have always been supportive of the need to provide the best service we can to users within and around our airspace. Although we would like that to continue the priority for ATC at Glasgow must be to provide a safe and effective service to commercial flights into or outbound from Glasgow airport, the number of which has grown steadily over the past few years.
This summer ATC at Glasgow has lost several key members of the ATC team and, although we have recruited replacements, the training required to achieve the required level of competence will take time. As a result of this we have fewer controllers than required and will not be able to open as many operational positions.
What this means to you, is that you may not get the service you are used to from Glasgow or any service at all in some instances. You can help us to help you by…
Planning to fly around the Glasgow Control Zone, squawking 2620, and listening out on 119.1Mhz , any aircraft requesting a zone transit must call ATC on 0141 840 8029 at least 30 minutes before departure , and pass details of the flight, but it is unlikely that we will be able to accommodate your request, alternatively you can contact Scottish FIR on 119.875Mhz for a Basic Service.
We understand that this will not be great news for you to read, but we believe that being open and up front about the challenges that we face will help you to plan your excursions and get the most out your aircraft.
I wish you a summer of good flying.
Regards…
Tom Kirkhope
General Manager ATS (Glasgow)
you may not get the service you are used to from Glasgow or any service at all in some instances.
I don't see a closure there. He is just saying that things will be tight, so cut them some slack. You MAY not get what you are used to. He's not suggested that they are closing the airspace to puddle jumpers!
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: wishaw strathclyde
I regularly around the the Glasgow zone and fail to understand their request to squawk 2620 when I have never been transponder equipped and am flying within the vfr corridor outside their airspace.Are glasgow now asking that all aircraft be transponder capable to. Fly round airspace they do not control.I prefer to fly round their zone on a listening watch and without requesting a service in order to reduce their workload but I'll draw the line at fitting a transponder to accommodate their Atc inadequancies.I will continue to fly in uncontrolled airspace around the zone within the already onerous restrictions placed on a simple vfr pilot.I feel for the brilliant controllers at Glasgow and Scottish who face an ever increasing workload but loathe the financially motivated leaders who allow this to happen.
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 350
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From: Scotland
.
Dear all,
At Glasgow, we have always been supportive of the need to provide the best service we can to users within and around our airspace. Although we would like that to continue the priority for ATC at Glasgow must be to provide a safe and effective service to commercial flights into or outbound from Glasgow airport, the number of which has grown steadily over the past few years.
This summer ATC at Glasgow has lost several key members of the ATC team and, although we have recruited replacements, the training required to achieve the required level of competence will take time. As a result of this we have fewer controllers than required and will not be able to open as many operational positions.
What this means to you, is that you may not get the service you are used to from Glasgow or any service at all in some instances. You can help us to help you by…
Planning to fly around the Glasgow Control Zone, squawking 2620, and listening out on 119.1Mhz , any aircraft requesting a zone transit must call ATC on 0141 840 8029 at least 30 minutes before departure , and pass details of the flight, but it is unlikely that we will be able to accommodate your request, alternatively you can contact Scottish FIR on 119.875Mhz for a Basic Service.
We understand that this will not be great news for you to read, but we believe that being open and up front about the challenges that we face will help you to plan your excursions and get the most out your aircraft.
I wish you a summer of good flying.
Regards…
Tom Kirkhope
General Manager ATS (Glasgow)
Dear all,
At Glasgow, we have always been supportive of the need to provide the best service we can to users within and around our airspace. Although we would like that to continue the priority for ATC at Glasgow must be to provide a safe and effective service to commercial flights into or outbound from Glasgow airport, the number of which has grown steadily over the past few years.
This summer ATC at Glasgow has lost several key members of the ATC team and, although we have recruited replacements, the training required to achieve the required level of competence will take time. As a result of this we have fewer controllers than required and will not be able to open as many operational positions.
What this means to you, is that you may not get the service you are used to from Glasgow or any service at all in some instances. You can help us to help you by…
Planning to fly around the Glasgow Control Zone, squawking 2620, and listening out on 119.1Mhz , any aircraft requesting a zone transit must call ATC on 0141 840 8029 at least 30 minutes before departure , and pass details of the flight, but it is unlikely that we will be able to accommodate your request, alternatively you can contact Scottish FIR on 119.875Mhz for a Basic Service.
We understand that this will not be great news for you to read, but we believe that being open and up front about the challenges that we face will help you to plan your excursions and get the most out your aircraft.
I wish you a summer of good flying.
Regards…
Tom Kirkhope
General Manager ATS (Glasgow)
Number of Movements
1997 98,204
1998 100,942
1999 101,608
2000 104,929
2001 110,408
2002 104,393
2003 105,597
2004 107,885
2005 110,581
2006 110,034
2007 108,305
2008 100,087
2009 85,281
2010 77,755
2011 78,111
2012 80,472
2013 79,520
2014 84,000
2015 90,790
2016 98,217
Source: United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority
Secondly, although it is reasonable to ask that "any aircraft requesting a zone transit must call ATC on 0141 840 8029 at least 30 minutes before departure, and pass details of the flight", it is not reasonable to go on to state that "it is unlikely that we will be able to accommodate your request". Surely this should depend on how busy ATC is at the time of the requested zone transit and should only be refused when workload is high ie for Traffic reasons as has always been the case in the past?
Hopefully, these restrictions are only very temporary. If not, I think they need to be strongly challenged by local GA.
PS I urge local pilots to continue to monitor 119.10 and squawk 2620 (if transponder equipped) even if refused a zone transit but I fear some may not.....
Last edited by Forfoxake; 3rd July 2017 at 21:40.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 605
Likes: 10
From: UK
If you can do it, then why wouldn't you? If you can't then apply airmanship accordingly.
There's no reason to give them a hard time on here - they are trying to help everyone by asking everyone to help them so far as is individually possible.