Budget for a Permit to Fly Syndicate

[applebyca]

Looking for assistance in compiling a budget for a Permit to Fly aircraft eg. Eurostar SL.

Excluding aircraft mortgage, considerations might include :-

Hangar/Parking
Insurance
Fuel
Oil
Radio certificate
PTF Renewal
Maintenance
CAA Registration

Assuming a surplus hourly rate for engine fund and maintenance, can anyone offer any assistance with an approx. operating budget for a Eurostar SL?

No need to including pilot licencing.

[Flyingmac]

Well. Hangarage costs vary considerably depending on where you are, so your first item is unanswerable due to insufficient data. The same with most of the others.

[applebyca]

Thanks Flyingmac.

I'm awaiting costs from a few airfields on this one, so that will be known.

Insurance, Fuel & Oil will all be relative, so it's more the maintenance, renewals costs etc. for a Eurostar that I'm interested in under a PTF.

Thanks.

[Heston]

You need to think about fixed costs which will be the same over a year however many hours are flown eg hangarage, and variable costs which depend on hours flown eg fuel and maintenance. Work out budgets separately for these and make sure the members fixed payments more than cover the fixed cost, otherwise you'll be in big trouble from the outset.
You will also need to agree how the group is going to deal with big unexpected costs that might arise. Put this in writing in the syndicate agreement.

[applebyca]

Thanks Heston.

I have considered 4 different models by varying the monthly/hourly costs. I've also experimented this against an average number of hours flown over a 12 month duration. (approximately 360 hours based on my current CofA syndicate).

I also plan to use (more or less) the same syndicate agreement, which has been running well for many years.

So I've factored in a monthly/hourly surplus, but as I'm not overly familiar with 1) Eurostar maintenance and 2) requirements under a PTF, I'm not quite sure what is to be expected.

I believe the Eurostar has a mandatory requirement for a wings-off at 2,000 hours and a factory rebuild at 4,000 hours. So I'm looking for knowledge around expected Eurostar annual maintenance costs under a PTF.

I'd like to avoid an unexpected cash-call under the syndicate, so the balance in the numbers should hopefully produce a healthy forecast when the cash is required ie. engine, wings-off, rebuild etc.

Many thanks for your inputs.

[xrayalpha]

The Eurostar dealers should be your first port of call, and they have a list of bulletins here:

Buletins

I see the 2,000 hour bulletin is "pending".

Personally, from operating a microlight C42 in a school environment - so about 400 hours a year - we would look to strip the wings at 2,000hrs and renew the main fuselage tube at 3,000hrs. We changed one Rotax 912 at 2,000 hours (it was never a happy engine) and we have others running at 2,500+ hours and running nicely. I know of others that have done well in excess of 3,000 hours. 912S may not be quite so long living.

I know the C42 is a very different construction, but regardless of service bulletins, a wings off and every bit exposed look around at 2,000hrs would be a good thing - so I would budget for that.

Not sure what a factory rebuild would be. This is a Permit Aircraft, so unusual to have a "factory" rebuild - after all, it could have been amateur kit built in the first place!

So, you may now be getting my point...

Much of the costs will be determined on who does the work. You could strip the aircraft down and inspect it and if nothing found put it all back together and it wouldn't cost you anything! (other than the inspector's fee) Or go and pay someone (ouch!)

Two people could reduce it to a "box of bits" with engine out and rebuild it again in three full days.

Same with routine maintenance. Do it yourself or pay someone. Don't take it to a regular GA facility - they won't know what they are looking at.

Servicing will be dead simple. Plugs, filters, fluids. And clean it, clean it and clean it!

So again, need more info. How does the syndicate feel about getting hands dirty?

As a rule of thumb (and as a school), we allow a tenner an hour for servicing/parts replacement/engine (ie a tenner in total), a tenner an hour for depreciation and £15 an hour for fuel.

Over the past 10 year this has proved pretty accurate for a range of permit aircraft with the exception of the depreciation - the aircraft just don't seem to fall in value!

Obviously, at say 4,000 hours on the original engine, the aircraft will have depreciated significantly - and need significant work (thinking of the engine!) But it will still have value to the 50 hour a year private flyer.

I think most syndicates swap out at 2,000 hours for a new aircraft, if truth be told. It is only schools that just keep going.

Hope that helps

[applebyca]

Thank you Xrayalpha.

Very helpful and wise words. Much appreciated.

This should give me a good lead on further discussions with the syndicate.

Brining in a tech with the know-how would be a useful contribution for the group and could be off-set with incentives to maintain.

The factory rebuild comment came from a friendly school. But perhaps that was more of a requirement under "training purposes".

Hope you're enjoying the weather and have a great weekend.

[Mariner9]

By way of a guide, here's the total costs for our Pioneer300 based at a farm strip

Hangarage £150/month
Insurance £1250pa
Maintenance/Permit renewal etc £300pa
Fuel £22/hour
Engine fund £10/hr

[patowalker]

You might get more info if you ask on here https://www.facebook.com/groups/EvektorEurostar/

[applebyca]

Originally Posted by Mariner9

By way of a guide, here's the total costs for our Pioneer300 based at a farm strip

Hangarage £150/month
Insurance £1250pa
Maintenance/Permit renewal etc £300pa
Fuel £22/hour
Engine fund £10/hr

Thanks Mariner9. Very useful.

With regards to insurance, fees will obviously be relative to market value.

At a guess I'm thinking something around the 10% Current MV.

Would that be a fair assumption for a PTF under 500 hours pa?

[Mariner9]

With regards to insurance, fees will obviously be relative to market value.

At a guess I'm thinking something around the 10% Current MV.

I think relative to flying experience more.
Ours works out at about 2% current MV based on 3 pretty experienced pilots.

Visicover have an on line quoting tool - suggest you put your details in of your anticipated group flying experience and aircraft type to give you an idea of costs.

[applebyca]

Originally Posted by Mariner9

I think relative to flying experience more.
Ours works out at about 2% current MV based on 3 pretty experienced pilots.

Visicover have an on line quoting tool - suggest you put your details in of your anticipated group flying experience and aircraft type to give you an idea of costs.

Thanks again Mariner9. Your figures were much closer.

I spoke with an aviation insurance company this afternoon for an indicative pricing and based on 10 members with a 150 hour minimum, they indicated around 3.8% MV.

I've also heard back from potential airfield on parking/hangarage. So the puzzle is coming together quite well with the encouraging knowledge and experience out there.

I will try visicover too. I have an interested party who wishes to join on an Ab Initio basis, so I just need the insurance company to extend the cover and I'll be a happy man.

Best regards.