Is it possible to fly to Holland from the UK without a transponder?

[Dodgy Oscar]

Hi Guys

I'm planning to fly to Teuge (EHTE) in Holland from the UK but my transponder has stopped working and I might not be able to get it fixed in time for the trip. Will it still be possible for me to fly there and if so, how do I go about it? e.g. do I avoid Class D etc. My original route was to be DVR KONAN KOK COA.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Jonathan

[Jan Olieslagers]

In BE no problem, but indeed stay out of controlled airspace, which already precludes KOK-COA at any altitude.

In NL remain below 1200' AMSL - sounds unattractive but in such flat country it is not impossible. I don't really know about your chances of being allowed in Controlled Airspace in NL with no transponder, but I feel they are slim at best.

Also don't forget you'll need to pass immigration (aka "customs") , I do not think this is available at Teuge so you'd need to land on the way. Options include LFAC Calais, EBKT Kortrijk, EHMZ Midden-Zeeland.

[Sam Rutherford]

You could claim (when asked "is your transponder working because we can't see it?") that it failed in flight. That makes everything possible, but it does also make everything possible! :-)

This is not official advice!

[Jan Olieslagers]

Or could claim you are enroute to EHMZ to have the excellent avionics shop look into it. Perhaps even consider actually doing so, too.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Really?

The emoticon perhaps needs to be more prominent.

[Sam Rutherford]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but suspect there's a difference - care to send the link/details and I'll see if I can clarify?

Cheers, Sam.

[BackPacker]

In the Netherlands, without a serviceable Mode S transponder, you are limited to altitudes below 1200' (which is not an issue - there is very little high ground in the Netherlands and only a few obstacles that high) and you need to remain outside controlled airspace.

If you only have a Mode A or Mode A/C transponder, that counts as an U/S Mode S transponder and officially needs to be switched OFF altogether. And yes, I agree that that is stupid, as it also prevents TCAS/PCAS from working.

As far as customs is concerned, your best bet would be EHMZ, or possibly EHSE. From there it's no problem to fly to EHTE outside controlled airspace and below 1200'. You'll probably follow any of the big rivers until clear of the EHDL airspace, and then head North for the entry point Sierra. Do watch the glider area Terlet that is located inside the EHDL airspace: Loads of gliders active east of that airspace.

And if you've never been to EHTE: Note that you can't see the runway yet at the point where you're supposed to join downwind. Maintain good navigation (look at the bends in the canal, and the orange circuit markers) to know where you need to turn. Also mind the noise sensitive areas.

[alex90]

Hi Jonathan,

A lot of things are possible without a transponder, even in Belgium. If you contact Oostende-Brugge's ATC unit prior to submitting a flight plan (stating clearly in the notes that transponder is U/S), and ask them if they would be able to accept your transit for you without transponder.

I have flown without transponder through several class D zones over the last year or so, its never been an issue. Their radar also has primary radar (showing you as a dot without any further information), they occasionally ask you to turn to a particular direction for identification, but they essentially DO see you. You may however, be asked several times what altitude you are at for separation purposes.

Hope this helps!
Alex

[Jan Olieslagers]

@Alex90: you have been luckier than me - only a few weeks ago I was positively refused access to EBOS, precisely on the pretense (sp?) of the lack of an active transponder.

[Dodgy Oscar]

Thanks everybody for your replies. They have been extremely useful!!!

I think I'll plan to coast in somewhere near Calais and then wiggle my way up through Belgium and into the Netherlands. I see that Lille TMA is Class E and extends from 1500' to FL65 in the vicinity of Calais. Am I right to assume that I will be able to fly through the Class E part without a transponder providing I'm in radio contact with Lille?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Jonathan

[Mixed Up]

Am I right to assume that I will be able to fly through the Class E part without a transponder providing I'm in radio contact with Lille?

Despite Lille's initial reluctance ... yes. (My experience ~4 years ago.)

[alex90]

@Jan Olieslagers - I found that calling them on the phone prior to submitting the flight plan helped a great deal. I was only refused once, due to military activity (which I understand is quite common).

Remember however that 8.33Khz spacing is extensively used in Holland, if you don't have 8.33khz compatible radio, you may need to ensure that your routing does not require any usage of these frequencies.

Good luck Jonathan, and have an incredible flight - I'd recommend going to Kinderdijk (South East of Rotterdam's airspace) and do a low pass to checkout these stunning windmills.

ps: Lille is fine without transponder, but they may complain a little... They will accept you for a Basic Service.

[BackPacker]

You also may want to check ELT requirements when you come to the Netherlands.

Remember however that 8.33Khz spacing is extensively used in Holland, if you don't have 8.33khz compatible radio, you may need to ensure that your routing does not require any usage of these frequencies.

At the moment 8.33 is only used inside controlled airspace (military and civil). In uncontrolled airspace you can still talk to Amsterdam Info and Dutch Mil info on the old 25 kHz frequencies. Also all uncontrolled fields, including EHTE, are still on 25 kHz, for now... So coincidentally your U/S transponder will mean that you will not have to use any 8.33 kHz frequency.

ps: Lille is fine without transponder, but they may complain a little... They will accept you for a Basic Service.

A "Basic Service" is a UK exception to ICAO standard practice. The rest of the world talks about a Flight Information Service. So that's what you should be asking Lille for. (And yes, there is a difference otherwise the UK CAA/NATS would not have made the change a few years ago. Although as far as BS/FIS is concerned, I've never been too worried about those differences.)

But I guess Lille is so fed up with correcting UK pilots that they'll pretend to give you a BS, while actually giving you a FIS.

[Sam Rutherford]

ditto to your comment on the Lille and 'BS' request! :-)

[alex90]

Haha! Well when I am out of the UK I don't request services, they give me what they give me and I take it. I meant that they'll provide you with some service! ;-) very good point though!

[Jan Olieslagers]

I found that calling them on the phone prior to submitting the flight plan helped a great deal.

Which is exactly what I did - you are not the first to recommend this, actually it is in the AIP - and got a blank refusal. And yes, military activity is quite common on weekdays but very rare in the weekend; yet my refusal was on Saturday April 22nd.

Remember however that 8.33Khz spacing is extensively used in Holland

Not really, AFAIK. They do announce frequencies, or rather "channels", that require an 8,33 radio to tune into correctly; however they are not yet using the nearby 8,33-only frequencies so one can tune the corresponding 25 kHz channel and get useable communication. Mind you, I am not recommending to depend on this, ramp checks at Dutch aerodromes have a reputation for rigidity. Planes have been impounded for not carrying an ELT, for example.

@T/S: you still seem to have no intention to clear immigration - up to you, but don't come crying if things go wrong.

[patowalker]

Jan,

It was probably the traffic situation, added to the lack of transponder, which led to the refusal to allow you in.

ULM flights will only be accepted within Oostende CTR if traffic situation permits.
Take-off and landing is only allowed for ULM aircraft complying with the following:

• three-axis ULM;
• Equipped with transponder;
• Equipped with radio able to communicate on VHF;
• Able to maintain an airspeed of 80 KIAS MNM.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Yes yes, I know, dear @patowalker, no need to point me to the AIP. Allow me to not further elaborate on what actually happened, I have a feeling there was some friction between various people/services at EBOS on my particular request - well-prepared as it had been.

[patowalker]

Ah, probably someone who doesn't like small aeroplanes then, whether they have a transponder or not. :-)

[Jan Olieslagers]

Perhaps, yes. Or perhaps somebody was overmuch welcoming me for someone else's preferences. It certainly was very disappointing, EBOS had been on my wish list for a very long while because I knew well they'd make an exception - but it isn't anymore now.