Starting Out - Advice

[PA28181]

it's a good idea as you then have some commitment from the student that they're not going to go elsewhere

That really should be because the acrft are clean and reliable, the ground facilities are to a decent standard for the type of customer base you expect in the aviation world, smart and customer orientated staff including the instructors, and because the word of mouth advertising should be good enough....

[tobster911]

Of course it should be, but it never is. Same reason car dealerships will offer you a service plan on a car. It's cheaper than paying each time you come for a service, but the service has to be done at the dealer.

[Sam Rutherford]

I do think that PA28181 should try and see this from the school's (real-world) perspective. If nothing else, there are clearly reasons why all (?) schools offer price packages. So it clearly makes sense to them...

[PA28181]

Sorry tobster but comparing car dealerships with aviation doesn't work, totally different business model/customer base.

Sam I don't need to see it from their perspective as a customer I am only interested in the service level from my previous reply from these "businesses, and that's all they are nothing more, as for the "it's what suits them" is just that, it's not for the customers benefit even with a little discount as you are basically stuck with them no matter how bad it could get once you are committed.

[Sam Rutherford]

Ah, so because you wouldn't take that option, you think the option shouldn't exist?

Don't forget that in many (the majority of) cases, people do pay a lump up front and both they and the school are very happy to have done so. Win-win all around...

[tobster911]

It is totally different, but the principle of doing a discount if you pay up front for a service that ties you in to one business is found all over the place. It's the same thing. You could pay £800 for a service plan, and have a horrendous experience, but you're still tied to that dealer. In terms of a business model, they're all fairly much of a muchness no matter what business you're in. provide good service, make good money, that's it.

Of course it's for the business's benefit, otherwise it's not a business, it's a charity. If it was horrendous, there would always be a way to get your money back (unless, of course, the school closed - but how often has that happened, compared to those that do this every day?)

I'm not saying that you're wrong or anything like that, not in any respect, I personally wouldn't pay a massive amount up front, but, take FIS for example. If you want to do some hour building there, you can pay up front for 25 hours and each hour would be 150 EUR. However, if you book for 50 hours, it's only 148 EUR per hour. Now, I know this equates to only £100 saved, so maybe not the best example, but it's a big company, and if I had the money, I wouldn't hesitate to do a block booking with them.

[PA28181]

Ah, so because you wouldn't take that option, you think the option shouldn't exist?

No not in the slightest. Just if it is offered, my advice to any new starter will not change from "Don't Pay Upfront" I wouldn't, but no-one has to take any advice from me you don't even know if I can fly.......so my advice is just as most here not worth the pixels it's written on, as a future pilot you will be making some possibly life threatening decisions that will not be sorted out on a forum so pay upfront if happy,

[flyinkiwi]

It seems this thread has devolved into a pay upfront or not debate. My 2c on that part is, it is entirely dependent on a whole lot of factors so one cannot be absolutely certain it is appropriate for all possible scenarios. As a general rule of thumb, it's probably a good idea to hang onto your money for as long as possible. Having said that, I myself paid up front because the club I trained at has been teaching people to fly for 70 years and will probably be doing so long after I'm gone. YMMV.

[mary meagher]

learning to fly? another approach entirely!

ac_ppl, I am somewhat surprised that nobody on this thread has suggested learning to fly properly....WITHOUT an engine! They are called gliders.
As you live near London, why not visit the London Gliding Club? near Dunstable,
or my club, near Banbury, called Shenington.
That way you get started on the basics. Effects of controls. Weather - very important! safety...looking out for other aircraft, etc etc.

And if you fail your medical, you are probably still OK to fly solo in a glider.....

I started in gliders, got the PPL later and did a lot of tug flying which somebody else pays for!

It won't hurt to get a bit of real flying in while waiting for your medical!

Happy landings!

[jamesgrainge]

Originally Posted by mary meagher

ac_ppl, I am somewhat surprised that nobody on this thread has suggested learning to fly properly....WITHOUT an engine! They are called gliders.
As you live near London, why not visit the London Gliding Club? near Dunstable,
or my club, near Banbury, called Shenington.
That way you get started on the basics. Effects of controls. Weather - very important! safety...looking out for other aircraft, etc etc.

And if you fail your medical, you are probably still OK to fly solo in a glider.....

I started in gliders, got the PPL later and did a lot of tug flying which somebody else pays for!

It won't hurt to get a bit of real flying in while waiting for your medical!

Happy landings!

Do gliders hours count towards your ppl?

[PA28181]

I am somewhat surprised that nobody on this thread has suggested learning to fly properly

Thats just written off all his chances of learning to fly then. Yep fly gliders, they don't go anywhere, except round in circles, you will stand around all day freezing to get a flight after you have pulled,pushed and generally dogsbodied heavy fibreglass around hoping to get some in.

I suggest paramotoring at least you go where/when you want.

[tobster911]

Thats just written off all his chances of learning to fly then. Yep fly gliders, they don't go anywhere, except round in circles, you will stand around all day freezing to get a flight after you have pulled,pushed and generally dogsbodied heavy fibreglass around hoping to get some in.

Hahaha, pretty much sums up gliding in the UK

I love glider flying. Haven't done anywhere near as much as I'd like, but I did start with it and found it thoroughly enjoyable.

However, as the hours don't really count (or a very small percentage do), it's the kind of thing that isn't as important as powered flying, if you just want to get your hours and your license.

I am not going to argue though that glider flying, in my experience, is a bit more involved and certainly trains with regards to weather etc, and as Mary says, once you've got your PPL and some gliding experience under your belt, you may find that the gliding club gives you control of a tug

[Heston]

Originally Posted by tobster911

(unless, of course, the school closed - but how often has that happened, compared to those that do this every day?)

Flight schools go bust much much more frequently than any other business that you'd pay up front for a service that you expect to be provided over an extended time period. I know, and have taught, five people who have lost between them many thousands of pounds each at different schools (over 20 years granted).

And Mary's advice is good. I've no time for those who dismiss gliding. You'll be a better pilot for having done some.

[jamesgrainge]

Originally Posted by Heston

Flight schools go bust much much more frequently than any other business that you'd pay up front for a service that you expect to be provided over an extended time period. I know, and have taught, five people who have lost between them many thousands of pounds each at different schools (over 20 years granted).

And Mary's advice is good. I've no time for those who dismiss gliding. You'll be a better pilot for having done some.

That's as may be, however, if flying a glider costs you money, and you want to spend money for your powered flight licences, and none of the hours count towards a PPL, there won't be many takers. Aviation is expensive enough as it is, without splashing money about on other avenues than the one you are interested in.

[PA28181]

You'll be a better pilot for having done some.

Well I have done "Some" at Lasham and the Black Moutains, it is certainly different to powered flying by a long way. But, it is not in the same "type" of flying that the majority want, which is get in start up take off go where you want land and come back again with other pilots/friends/family, this is not an option for glider pilots.

It is IMHO purely "sport" flying and yes glider pilots who are experienced are probably some of the best handlers of wind/WX/thermals for staying aloft and physical handling ability, BUT it's not in the same league as powered flying, and I wouldn't go picking up gliding skills as a precursor to powered flying as you will if on a budget spend much needed cash and time probably getting rid of your different habits, and as been said not much benefit to logging SEP hours.

[Heston]

Originally Posted by PA28181

. (w)hat the majority want, which is get in start up take off go where you want land and come back again with other pilots/friends/family

Urgh how boring! That's not flying, that's driving a bus, and I'd query your assertion that it's what the majority want to do. The £200 bacon roll is one reason so many new ppl holders give up so soon.
But fair enough, if that's what the OP wants, then I'd agree that gliding won't miss him.
And you are wrong about transferrable skills - gliding skills make good power pilots, but it doesn't work as well the other way round.

[flyingorthopod]

Gliding is great fun and teaches good handling and airmanship skills which I think transfer usefully to powered flying. I've only had a few trips in gliders though.

The thing I found frustrating is that the gliding clubs I have experience of expect you to spend a whole day helping out in order to get flying. This is a great social experience and very enjoyable but if you only have half a day spare it's hard to get airborne; picking a flying club and booking a slot that suits you makes life easier for the terminally busy.

If you're likely to be near London for a while, Clacton do a Super Cub PPL and that's a good way to learn proper stick and rudder skills. And more fun than a Cessna.

If there's a discount for paying in advance, take it but use a credit card so if the school does go bust you will be able to claim against the card company.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by tobster911

Hahaha, pretty much sums up gliding in the UK

I've been gliding once. An entire evening spent doing stuff on the ground for ten minutes in the air, at a cost per minute not that much less than powered flying. An interesting experience but not something I'm going to do very much of.

[n5296s]

I've never understood why glider pilots take such a superior attitude, as demonstrated on this thread. Sure, it's a perfectly fine flying hobby, if that's what you enjoy. Each to their own and all that. That's not a reason to go on about it how it's the only way to learn to fly, or make it seem somehow superior.

My personal experience of gliding is that it's pretty boring, as much as any kind of flying ever can be, and disproportionately expensive. You get towed up, you descend slowly, you land, rinse and repeat. At an hourly cost exceeding flying the Pitts, which I promise is a LOT more fun. Now if you fly out of Minden, it can be a lot more exciting - I have a friend who got his PPL-G precisely so he could do that. But most places aren't Minden (next door to the Sierra Nevada, and home to several glider flying records).

And that's the US version of gliding, with powered, paid-for tows, a lot like renting a powered aircraft except without an engine or the ability to go anywhere. As I understand the UK version, and as described here, it consists primarily of standing round all day getting cold, in return for maybe 15 minutes of flying. No doubt a great, if chilly, social activity, but that's about it.

[mary meagher]

At Shenington this week....a small gliding club....

Monday and Tuesday provided good soaring weather. Alan L. did 360 k, Steve T. managed 500 k, and GP flew 660 k. Visitors from the Oxford Club also achieved great distances, David managed 365.7 on Monday and 302.4 on Tuesday.

No doubt the larger clubs, eg. Dunstable (London), Lasham, Husbands Bosworth did even better.

In the United States, alas, the gliding scene is pretty much as described by some of the disgruntled posters above. Americans find it much more difficult to cooperate in a club environment.

I am no longer young enough or fit enough to fly solo, instruct, tug, or even to attach a winch cable to the belly hook of a glider, but I spent this morning helping out at the launchpoint, there were no thermals, but a good training day, and a lad of 15 did three solos, after a series of practice launch failures.
And on my flight, for the first time I didn't bother to wear a parachute! alas, it didn't make it any easier to struggle out of the seat after landing.