C172 Spin Safety

[John_Reid]

Why would you want to spin a C172?

The only reason I see to be able to recover from a spin is, if you are carrying out "solo" aerobatics.

As said previously, most aircraft of that type recover by just letting go of the controls.

[Heston]

Originally Posted by Piltdown Man

This thread is nothing to do with spin safety, it started due to general anxiety. ...most of the time you have "quickly do nothing" to deal with them. Not until that is learnt will you be happy in an aircraft.

PM

Good points. The aircraft "knows" how to fly. The big secret that we don't tell non pilots is that most of the time we are not doing anything, we don't need to because the aircraft is dealing with things.

You mention doing lots of home SIM stuff. This doesn't prepare you well for the physical sensations of flight. You will get used to them in time. You may benefit from a couple of flights where you are not trying to learn anything new, just enjoying how it feels, looks and smells (the brain is very good at association of smell with emotional state, presumably a prehistoric survival thing, so you may be programmed to be stressed by the hot plastic and fuel smells that seem unique to aircraft, so make sure the ventilation is good).

Specifically on spins - the highest stress on the aircraft is after the spin has stopped, during the recovery from the ensueing dive, so why not try a few dives to different speeds and practice gently easing out to level flight concentrating on the sensation of slightly increased g?

[SpannerInTheWerks]

that story is jaw dropping

Unbelievable to my mind ... I can't imagine anyone I've ever known in the UK flying in that manner.

Maybe I've been lucky over the past 40 years ... ?!

[nkt2000]

When I did my training, neither I nor my instructor could get our C172 to spin. It just settled itself down again every time we tried with virtually no input from me. That's one of the reasons I fly a 172.

[ChickenHouse]

Spin training in a C172 is somehow awkward, as almost all 172 are not allowed to spin. What is the use of such training? Isn't it dangerous, as virtually every 172 you take afterwards does have a placard saying - do not?

Besides from that, many if not most 172 will not spin at all and if they are re-rigged to be able to, they feel quite wrong upon doing so.

Resumé: I would not bother if spinning a 172 I could not cope with, or does feel bad - it is.

Advice: do spinning training in an aircraft really meant for it.

[foxmoth]

but I think it's one of the main reasons why I hate G-Forces and don't trust airplanes at all.

But then it was not the aircraft that let you down - in spite of the instructor the aircraft held together and kept you safe!
I would agree with those that say if you want to spin train go for an aircraft that is more suited to it, but that is only because it will spin better, the Cessna spin tends to decay into a spiral too easily. As far as Markkals comments about precautions go (take a G meter etc), this really is not neccessary IMHO, as myself and others have already pointed out recovery should not go anywhere near the aircraft limits.

[ASweetOldMan]

Thanks again all! Lots of new information from this thread!

What would it look like during preflight if the airframe had been significantly overloaded (aside from one wing missing or at a bad angle haha)? I recall hearing before that if the aluminum on the top of the wing is wrinkled, it is not good.

[terry holloway]

Originally Posted by ChickenHouse

Spin training in a C172 is somehow awkward, as almost all 172 are not allowed to spin. What is the use of such training? Isn't it dangerous, as virtually every 172 you take afterwards does have a placard saying - do not?

Besides from that, many if not most 172 will not spin at all and if they are re-rigged to be able to, they feel quite wrong upon doing so.

Resumé: I would not bother if spinning a 172 I could not cope with, or does feel bad - it is.

Advice: do spinning training in an aircraft really meant for it.

That's not true. Check the POH.
In the Utility Class (low weight) they can be spun. There are however warnings about how to: low deaccceleration and minimal "forces ". But then why would you want or need to when it's not included in the PPL syllabus.

[ASweetOldMan]

It took a bit of working up to it, but I ended up asking the instructor to demonstrate spins (starting just from the initial break, and slowly working through until we did fully developed spins). I never did the control inputs myself, but hopefully I can get that down on future flights. I am very happy with myself for ending up giving it a shot.

It was scary for me, but just as I had hoped, the flight back (even with turbulence and whatnot) was so much more relaxed for me. Each additional spin that we did, I became less and less anxious.

Wings didn't come off!

regards,
ASweetOldMan

[treadigraph]

Well done for seeing it through!

[ASweetOldMan]

Thanks! I'll link a few videos in this thread once I get them uploaded and such. Really appreciate all of the advice from people! I got much more comfortable, and I also had lots of time after the flight now to think about what was scaring me at each point, and where the fear had diminished.

SUPER STOKED.

thanks,
ASweetOldMan

[horizon flyer]

Spin recovery is a good exercise in the right aircraft, but a better one is try this in a 152.

Full flap 30 1500 rpm and hold level flight as the speed slowly bleeds off and wait. Not below 3000 agl . It will suddenly drop the starboard wing and you are half way into a spin.
For recovery some left rudder to much and you are into a port spin. Immediately raise flaps cut engine ball centred then stall recovery. Instructor did this to me with no warning of what would happen, we lost 1500ft. Next time only 300ft. This is the classic stall spin turning finals. Was a better lesson than spinning which you need to do first. Taught me always add 5kt for the turns in the circuit and watch the air speed.

So next time in the 172 try the same configuration and procedure for I think it will be a more important lesson.

[Tarq57]

What would it look like during preflight if the airframe had been significantly overloaded (aside from one wing missing or at a bad angle haha)? I recall hearing before that if the aluminum on the top of the wing is wrinkled, it is not good.

Things like flecks of paint missing, especially near rivets. Said rivets maybe loose, or demonstrating a tiny oval gap around some of their circumference.

Corrugations in the skin.

Control hinges demonstrate excessive play.

In the Cessna singles, new large areas of crazing in the front windscreen perspex, near the wing roots.

Any looseness in the struts.

Total of wings/horizontal control surfaces/tailplanes doesn't add to an even number.

Bullet holes or explosives damage.

Any large-ish dings that indicate collision with some structure, such as a hangar door frame.

Of these options I've only ever seen the last one. A ding in a leading or trailing edge that wasn't there yesterday is a good reason to have a LAME check the aircraft.

[27/09]

Spin recovery is a good exercise in the right aircraft, but a better one is try this in a 152.

Full flap 30 1500 rpm and hold level flight as the speed slowly bleeds off and wait. Not below 3000 agl . It will suddenly drop the starboard wing and you are half way into a spin.
For recovery some left rudder to much and you are into a port spin. ........

.......So next time in the 172 try the same configuration and procedure for I think it will be a more important lesson.

Better check the C172 Flight Manual, don't think intentional spinning or spin entries are approved with flap extended.

[foxmoth]

Taught me always add 5kt for the turns in the circuit and watch the air speed.

As long as you are aware of your speed there is no need to add anything more than the correct speed.

Better check the C172 Flight Manual, don't think intentional spinning or spin entries are approved with flap extended.

it is not really a spin entry as such - but you should not be using rudder in the recovery just centralise the controls and it will recover.

[lasseb]

I remember having some doubt about how much a wing could actually cope with. Then I saw these pictures. And this is only the negative G load ;-)

[Silvaire1]

Same demonstration for a strut braced wing on an 800 lb empty weight plane...

[ASweetOldMan]

Quick video, more later if people are interested.

Hey all,

Thanks for the help. I've added cockpit audio and such to the videos I took, and I've uploaded them just so you could see the spins if you wanted since you took the time to answer my questions! I recorded the GPS data to a GPX file, but I can't seem to make it properly match the flight. I'm guessing it got confused or disoriented or lost signal or something, because it is super out of whack, and it normally is not.

EDIT: I forgot that I originally had not added the audio because I hadn't had time yet, and that the one with cockpit audio was the among the videos waiting to upload (they seem to have stalled for some reason). This one I attached does NOT have audio, but future ones will.

I started with 2 "spins" that were stopped in the incipient stage, and then 2 with 1 full rotation (or just about), and then 3 multi-rotation spins. At the very end the instructor demonstrated what he would do if a student did the wrong inputs, and so he stomped the left rudder, but immediately did full right rudder to stop the spin before it even started. The plane just went to knife-edge and he then recovered from there.

I distinctly recall how little that last maneuver bothered me (the knife-edge one). That would have freaked me out BIG TIME before the spins.

This is the last multi-rotation spin that we did. Most of my time flying in my sim as a kid was doing aerobatics, and so I think that probably helps me stay oriented a lot, but I don't know whether or not other people would be disoriented honestly. I do distinctly recall getting disoriented near the end of this last one. I was not really too dizzy on the other ones, but just near the end of this one (right as he was letting out the rudder), I recall my dizziness going from like 20% to 90% VERY quickly. Maybe it was just because of the spin itself going for longer than the others, or maybe it was a weird effect of the recovery inputs on my inner ear.

One of the weirdest things for me is that I understand the visuals of what is going on in the spin, I can stay oriented decently (aside from this last spin), but because my experience in the sim is ONLY visual, I have to try to match what I'm feeling to what I'm seeing. I have subconscious expectations regarding what it should feel like when I am seeing certain things, and I get very distracted with what I'm feeling regardless of whether it matches those expectations or not.



In the attached screenshot, you will see what I mean about the GPS not liking spins. I doubt that we ever had a ground speed of 214 knots, so I'm guessing it's just the GPS trying to catch up to what's going on.



I will attach the other videos once they get uploaded. I started the uploads before I left for school, but it seems to have stalled out somewhere along the way.

Much more comfortable with flying already! Hopefully I can become confident in spins next time I fly.

regards,
ASweetOldMan

[ASweetOldMan]

Originally Posted by Tarq57

Things like flecks of paint missing, especially near rivets. Said rivets maybe loose, or demonstrating a tiny oval gap around some of their circumference.

Corrugations in the skin.

Control hinges demonstrate excessive play.

In the Cessna singles, new large areas of crazing in the front windscreen perspex, near the wing roots.

Any looseness in the struts.

Total of wings/horizontal control surfaces/tailplanes doesn't add to an even number.

Bullet holes or explosives damage.

Any large-ish dings that indicate collision with some structure, such as a hangar door frame.

Of these options I've only ever seen the last one. A ding in a leading or trailing edge that wasn't there yesterday is a good reason to have a LAME check the aircraft.

Thank you. Lots of new information in that list!

[Tarq57]

I should point out that the above list of "signs" is not from a professional engineering standpoint- it's just what I've learned over the years, and should be considered "lay" opinions.

For a proper list of signs, best check with an engineer, or maybe there's an engineer on PPrune that can verify/debunk/add to it.