PA32 Saratoga - short field
From Pa 32 Saratoga POH "Maximum Perfromance Take Off" chart.
Sea level, 15 Deg C, MGTOW = 1700 feet or 518 metres......
Sea level, 15 Deg C, MGTOW = 1700 feet or 518 metres......
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I think Sam means grass too, if there were a clear area after your ground roll, maximum performance chart for ground roll only:
Hard, dry runway; SL; 15c = 1200ft at MGTOW so roughly 365m. You'd be looking at a minimum of 440m on groundroll on short dry grass (excluding CAA safety factor)
But then again - if you're flying super-light ie: no more than an hour of fuel and only you on board... A little 10kt headwind component, you might be able to do it - my chart says 1000ft groundroll - so including the short dry grass but not the CAA safety factor you'd be looking at 365m.
I think it might be safer to fly a Cub in there....
Hard, dry runway; SL; 15c = 1200ft at MGTOW so roughly 365m. You'd be looking at a minimum of 440m on groundroll on short dry grass (excluding CAA safety factor)
But then again - if you're flying super-light ie: no more than an hour of fuel and only you on board... A little 10kt headwind component, you might be able to do it - my chart says 1000ft groundroll - so including the short dry grass but not the CAA safety factor you'd be looking at 365m.
I think it might be safer to fly a Cub in there....
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I cannot speak for the Saratoga, but I can say that repeated short runway ops become very un nerving. My home runway started out at 700 feet. My C 150 would do it, but warm days were simply scary. I have operated a C 182 at 3350 gross weight out of a 900 foot runway (40 feet longer than the takeoff distance table said is needed) Too short to relax!
It's not worth the worry, and possible explanation to the insurer - leave yourself some room whenever you can....
It's not worth the worry, and possible explanation to the insurer - leave yourself some room whenever you can....
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Sam, my farm strip is about 450 meters, on the odd occasion I've considered upgrading to a bigger plane I looked at the Saratoga, Cherokee 6 , DArrow, Pathfinder Dakota, C210 and a lot of others, some have book figures that may just make it but those figures are for a plane equipped with a new engine and prop and flown by a factory test pilot. Could they do it? probably, do I want to do it consistently with passengers? probably not the margins are to slim. Sooner or later you're going to have an overshoot.
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PA32 Saratoga - short field
Anyone regularly taking one of these into 400m strips?
Thanks, Sam.
Anyone regularly taking one of these into 400m strips?
Thanks, Sam.
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I have 300 hrs in Cherokee sixes and 450hrs in a n/a Saratoga. I would be very happy with a well drained 400m grass strip in the C6, if I wasn't heavily loaded, and the wind was 10kts down the runway. The Saratoga is quite different and whilst I am happy with grass strips, would be very wary of anything less than 600m - and would want to know that conditions were favourable before taking it on. The Hershey-bar wing and the later laminar-flow wings are very different animals...
A Robertson STOL converted Cessna 206 would work on a 400 meter grass strip at gross weight and under virtually any conditions.
Listen to Step Turn
I have 25,000+ hours on many things including Chipmunks, JP's, Gnats, Hunters, Whirlwinds, Harriers, Lightnings, Jaguars, 737's and all models of 747's - oh and PA28's.
Everything we did had "margins". Unless you really need to fly in and out of a VERY limiting strip with VERY FEW "margins", I suggest that you don't.
Old and Not too Bold
I have 25,000+ hours on many things including Chipmunks, JP's, Gnats, Hunters, Whirlwinds, Harriers, Lightnings, Jaguars, 737's and all models of 747's - oh and PA28's.
Everything we did had "margins". Unless you really need to fly in and out of a VERY limiting strip with VERY FEW "margins", I suggest that you don't.
Old and Not too Bold
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This is a good video to set personal margins.
THIS IS A "MUST SEE" Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmEVwyMRYIY
THIS IS A "MUST SEE" Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmEVwyMRYIY
Last edited by Vilters; 13th Feb 2017 at 21:06.
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Another "Rotate and turn" video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vSM49-U3ZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vSM49-U3ZM
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I have the graphs if you would like them Sam - PM me.
The shortest Tarmac runway I've been in and out of is 500m with low fuel and 2pob. The PA32 can be a ground hog! With the wind blowing down the runway and a nice cold day etc you might do a little better but who can guarantee those ideal conditions?!
I use Elmsett a few times a year 900m grass. The grass is perfect there, well maintained, rolled and mowed short like a bowling green. Landing is never a problem (there is an upslope on one runway) I can get down in half the distance easily If the approach speed is nice and stable. Takeoff I wouldn't want to push it in light wind and higer temps with fuller fuel and more POB it always feels tight!
The shortest Tarmac runway I've been in and out of is 500m with low fuel and 2pob. The PA32 can be a ground hog! With the wind blowing down the runway and a nice cold day etc you might do a little better but who can guarantee those ideal conditions?!
I use Elmsett a few times a year 900m grass. The grass is perfect there, well maintained, rolled and mowed short like a bowling green. Landing is never a problem (there is an upslope on one runway) I can get down in half the distance easily If the approach speed is nice and stable. Takeoff I wouldn't want to push it in light wind and higer temps with fuller fuel and more POB it always feels tight!
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Not so lucky.
The guys got "locked in ground effect".
Vegitation, and turbulence around vegitation can change temperatures and density altitudes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVM3RRd1vf0
The guys got "locked in ground effect".
Vegitation, and turbulence around vegitation can change temperatures and density altitudes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVM3RRd1vf0