RTF to ATO, what does it mean?
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RTF to ATO, what does it mean?
Hi all,
Very quick question. I've just heard that my local flight school is now an ATO. What does this actually mean? Will there be a difference in the training they offer, or the prices, or is it literally just a title?
Many thanks
T
Very quick question. I've just heard that my local flight school is now an ATO. What does this actually mean? Will there be a difference in the training they offer, or the prices, or is it literally just a title?
Many thanks
T
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Isn't that simply the change from the old regulations to Part-FCL EASA compliant training management? From experience, whatever has an EU stamp is more expensive and less understandable.
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Shouldn't affect you.
It's just another thing that happens from time to time, when the CAA and/or EASA have nothing better to do than make changes where they aren't needed.
It's just another thing that happens from time to time, when the CAA and/or EASA have nothing better to do than make changes where they aren't needed.
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What it means for you is nothing. What it means for the school is a massive amount of cost and paperwork and a much more rigorous audit scheme. Unless they are offering courses above PPL then they may have been better waiting for the replacement to the RTF which is in the pipeline. We transition to an ATO on day 1 at considerable cost and pain as we were a TRTO doing type rating and approved courses as well as PPL but it really was a hard road.
What does this actually mean?
Will there be a difference in the training they offer,
or the prices,
Even EASA considered the ATO requirement over the top for recreational flying, and subject to further committee work, the RTF should be able to Declare its allegance to the Regulation and become a DTO without the expense of becoming an ATO!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen View Post
But he still doesn't know what is an RTF or an ATO !
Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen View Post
But he still doesn't know what is an RTF or an ATO !
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I have heard and it would be nice if someone confirm that the full costs in fees to the CAA for a school that offers CPL and IR training including extras such as simm approval is a little over 20 grand a year. On top of that you have the indirect costs of audits and preparing and updating various manuals.
If that's true then 100 pound per hour in your own aircraft is probably not unreasonable.
If that's true then 100 pound per hour in your own aircraft is probably not unreasonable.
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a little over 20 grand a year
For what..? Approval to allow qualified staff to offer training to the level they themselves are licensed to offer? Why do they feel the need to make people's lives a misery / more difficult / much more expensive? Is there a process we can follow to force them to justify their costs, and perhaps overturn their prices?
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Was a post deleted? I don't see any explanation posted on the forum... Or is this the "private message" taking over a thread? I was recently quoted £100 per hour of instruction on my own aircraft for the IR, and the company (who will remain nameless) said that this was due to the high cost of becoming an ATO - so I would find it interesting to have information that seems to be missing from this thread.
Figure to be confirmed of course... But that seems absolutely absurd! How can the UK CAA justify charging that kind of money!? (other than of course - they hold the monopoly in the industry and can charge anything they like for anything they want).
For what..? Approval to allow qualified staff to offer training to the level they themselves are licensed to offer? Why do they feel the need to make people's lives a misery / more difficult / much more expensive? Is there a process we can follow to force them to justify their costs, and perhaps overturn their prices?
For what..? Approval to allow qualified staff to offer training to the level they themselves are licensed to offer? Why do they feel the need to make people's lives a misery / more difficult / much more expensive? Is there a process we can follow to force them to justify their costs, and perhaps overturn their prices?
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Our charges remain very competitive (when compared with RTFs) and we do not pay an annual fee to the CAA.
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I was recently quoted £100 per hour of instruction on my own aircraft for the IR, and the company (who will remain nameless) said that this was due to the high cost of becoming an ATO
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Whopity - so this means that the school I was talking to, essentially was talking rubbish...
If I needed 30 hours of instruction to pass my CB-IR, they would make back the cost of being allowed to do IR training, and still have £60 per hour for the instructor with no-one but me doing the course! Seems a little crazy to me...
But perhaps I am just bad at numbers, and maybe it is one of the few things required to make money out of general aviation training? I told them that I would need to save a little before even contemplating the training. (i have started the groundschool - but not sat the exams yet)
If I needed 30 hours of instruction to pass my CB-IR, they would make back the cost of being allowed to do IR training, and still have £60 per hour for the instructor with no-one but me doing the course! Seems a little crazy to me...
But perhaps I am just bad at numbers, and maybe it is one of the few things required to make money out of general aviation training? I told them that I would need to save a little before even contemplating the training. (i have started the groundschool - but not sat the exams yet)
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So do you think an aviation professional who has paid tens up tens of thousands of pounds and significant time in gaining the skills to train you who knows naff all to do one of the single most dangerous courses in aviation is not worth the money?
I have heard and it would be nice if someone confirm that the full costs in fees to the CAA for a school that offers CPL and IR training including extras such as simm approval is a little over 20 grand a year.
Initial approval of CPL: £1277
Initial approval of IR: £1277
Initial evaluation of FNPT II: £7334
Annual continuation charge for CPL: £1141
Annual continuation charge for IR: £1141
Recurrent evaluation of FNPT II: £1654
All of the required manuals can be produced internally (the format is in AMC1 ORA.ATO.230(c)) or farmed out to a consultant for, say, £2000.
The fee for an external auditor seems to vary between £400 and £700/day and you can probably get away with one audit/year.
Thus total costs for initial approval, assuming that you get everything right first time, will be about 12,000 and recurrent costs about £5-6000 per annum. Not exactly cheap but certainly nowhere near £20,000 p.a.