Unpublished let-downs
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Beagle, Again, but without the stalling tactics, I'd be grateful if you would expand both the abbreviations and provide a reference in your other post to back up what you wrote. Part-NCO doesn't apply to my operations. Thanks.
ShyTorque,
Don't worry you are right. Many people are producing statements taken out of context.
The Safety Sense 25 document was a lot of tosh when it was badly written in 2009 and eight years later it reads even worse. Even in 2009 there were more LPV approaches in the USA than ILSs - many, many of them without an ATC facility.
In 2009 I talked to the chap in the CAA who was in charge of GPS rollout, who I believe wrote the aforementioned document, and I was told that the use of GPS and GPS approaches was still all a bit too dodgy/risky and it was not a mature technology. Thankfully, he had the good grace to wind his neck in when I mentioned that his comments were a concern as my airline, one of the largest in the world, had been doing them in widebodies every day for many years.
The introduction of WASS in the states... many years ago ...... brought the accuracy of GPS down from 10-15 metres to around one metre. The equipment available at reasonable cost, with all the protections, even for the smallest, lightest aircraft, is incredible - knowing your position down to 10 metres or so is unbelievable. Goodness, synthetic vision has now been introduced to GA and TAWS as well as TCAS are also available as add ons.
You can get a GPS approach done for you very cheaply by many companies advertising on the net.... you can get the software and be trained to do it yourself.
China is building over 200 airports before 2020 and none of them will have a VOR, NDB or ILS !
... and here in the UK we are still screaming, "here be dragons"
If you are a reasonably experienced instrument rated pilot you should be able to plan a sensible, safe, non airport located, cloud break with a device that tells you your position to within 10 metres and the basic IFR law allows for this. Many aviation companies/entities need to do this every day whilst carrying out their tasks and they have developed good SOPs to keep it safe and LEGAL.
Don't worry you are right. Many people are producing statements taken out of context.
The Safety Sense 25 document was a lot of tosh when it was badly written in 2009 and eight years later it reads even worse. Even in 2009 there were more LPV approaches in the USA than ILSs - many, many of them without an ATC facility.
In 2009 I talked to the chap in the CAA who was in charge of GPS rollout, who I believe wrote the aforementioned document, and I was told that the use of GPS and GPS approaches was still all a bit too dodgy/risky and it was not a mature technology. Thankfully, he had the good grace to wind his neck in when I mentioned that his comments were a concern as my airline, one of the largest in the world, had been doing them in widebodies every day for many years.
The introduction of WASS in the states... many years ago ...... brought the accuracy of GPS down from 10-15 metres to around one metre. The equipment available at reasonable cost, with all the protections, even for the smallest, lightest aircraft, is incredible - knowing your position down to 10 metres or so is unbelievable. Goodness, synthetic vision has now been introduced to GA and TAWS as well as TCAS are also available as add ons.
You can get a GPS approach done for you very cheaply by many companies advertising on the net.... you can get the software and be trained to do it yourself.
China is building over 200 airports before 2020 and none of them will have a VOR, NDB or ILS !
... and here in the UK we are still screaming, "here be dragons"
If you are a reasonably experienced instrument rated pilot you should be able to plan a sensible, safe, non airport located, cloud break with a device that tells you your position to within 10 metres and the basic IFR law allows for this. Many aviation companies/entities need to do this every day whilst carrying out their tasks and they have developed good SOPs to keep it safe and LEGAL.
Last edited by Good Business Sense; 5th Feb 2017 at 21:08.
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By the way there is a significant amount of IFR flying conducted outside of CAS in this part of the word. I'd guess at least some part of about 70 - 80 % of my IFR flights has been outside of CAS.
Flying away from published tracks (random routing) outside of controlled airspace is strictly forbidden here below FL150
In Paces example there is no airway and no CAS, in the UK we can fly IFR on any routing we choose if outside CAS.
Last edited by foxmoth; 5th Feb 2017 at 21:35.
Foxmoth,
Do you have an Instrument Rating?
Airways and Controlled Airspace are two different things. I don't have access to your UK charts, But looking on Skyvector it would seem to me you guys have Airways that proceed outside of controlled airspace, just like we do here.
I fail to see what you're getting at when you say Airways and CAS as being the same thing. They're not.
One area where we do differ is random routing outside of controlled airspace. This is absolutely forbidden here below FL150. How do you guarantee you are safely clear of any terrain, and unless using GPS how can you easily pin point your position to even know where you are?
Flying around in cloud like you guys do on a random track outside of controlled airspace makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
Do you have an Instrument Rating?
Airways and Controlled Airspace are two different things. I don't have access to your UK charts, But looking on Skyvector it would seem to me you guys have Airways that proceed outside of controlled airspace, just like we do here.
I fail to see what you're getting at when you say Airways and CAS as being the same thing. They're not.
One area where we do differ is random routing outside of controlled airspace. This is absolutely forbidden here below FL150. How do you guarantee you are safely clear of any terrain, and unless using GPS how can you easily pin point your position to even know where you are?
Flying around in cloud like you guys do on a random track outside of controlled airspace makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
Last edited by 27/09; 6th Feb 2017 at 06:05.
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27/09;
Here in EASA land airways are controlled airspace. IFR outside CAS is perfectly permissible. For her he route described earlier, there is an airway well above and a plenty of CAS for Bristol and Cardiff which puts the base way up.
I fly rotary mainly and fixed wing when ops let me and an awful lot of my Public Transport rotary flying is IFR outside CAS. It's the way it is and it works.
SND
Here in EASA land airways are controlled airspace. IFR outside CAS is perfectly permissible. For her he route described earlier, there is an airway well above and a plenty of CAS for Bristol and Cardiff which puts the base way up.
I fly rotary mainly and fixed wing when ops let me and an awful lot of my Public Transport rotary flying is IFR outside CAS. It's the way it is and it works.
SND
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How do you guarantee you are safely clear of any terrain, and unless using GPS how can you easily pin point your position to even know where you are?
As a matter of interest, how does an airway work if not CAS, it seems to me you are then just forcing all the aircraft into the same airspace, and if not controlled you are actually increasing the collision risk!
Last edited by foxmoth; 6th Feb 2017 at 06:44.
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Flying around in cloud like you guys do on a random track outside of controlled airspace makes the hair on the back of my head stand up.
Foxmoth, Yep I have VOR, ADF , GPS on my IR. They're all quite easy to use.
An Airway doesn't need to be in CAS, at least not in this part of the world. The Airway has a minimum altitude assigned to it, this may change at various DME points along it's route to ensure clearance from terrain.
While we usually follow Airways inside CAS, since CAS usually also means surveillance airspace we often get direct (random route) tracking.
In this part of the world we could not operate outside of controlled airspace without Airways. There's far to much cumulo granite about.
There's never been an issue with traffic conflicts on an Airway outside of CAS.
A, the traffic on these routes is never that great to start with, B all IFR flights are on a Flight Plan and IFR flights are advised of other IFR flights and where necessary each flight co-ordinates with other flights to ensure separation.
While the perceived risk of collision with another aircraft may be higher the very real risk of collision with cumulo granite all but disappears.
How do you go point to point outside of CAS and no Airway. Are you flying from nav aid to nav aid? If not how do you quickly and accurately pin point your position? Is the nav aid coverage that good every where in the UK? How do you ensure safe terrain clearance?
You mention radar assistance, that to me infers you are in controlled airspace, is that so? There is no radar assistance outside of CAS here.
Due to the topography there's large parts of NZ that don't have radar coverage so no chance of radar assistance.
An Airway doesn't need to be in CAS, at least not in this part of the world. The Airway has a minimum altitude assigned to it, this may change at various DME points along it's route to ensure clearance from terrain.
While we usually follow Airways inside CAS, since CAS usually also means surveillance airspace we often get direct (random route) tracking.
In this part of the world we could not operate outside of controlled airspace without Airways. There's far to much cumulo granite about.
There's never been an issue with traffic conflicts on an Airway outside of CAS.
A, the traffic on these routes is never that great to start with, B all IFR flights are on a Flight Plan and IFR flights are advised of other IFR flights and where necessary each flight co-ordinates with other flights to ensure separation.
While the perceived risk of collision with another aircraft may be higher the very real risk of collision with cumulo granite all but disappears.
How do you go point to point outside of CAS and no Airway. Are you flying from nav aid to nav aid? If not how do you quickly and accurately pin point your position? Is the nav aid coverage that good every where in the UK? How do you ensure safe terrain clearance?
You mention radar assistance, that to me infers you are in controlled airspace, is that so? There is no radar assistance outside of CAS here.
Due to the topography there's large parts of NZ that don't have radar coverage so no chance of radar assistance.
If you are a reasonably experienced instrument rated pilot you should be able to plan a sensible, safe, non airport located, cloud break with a device that tells you your position to within 10 metres .
In my case it's two metres.
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27/09, your posts makes my point that you are talking a very different set of rules, here I can launch off IFR without a flight plan, outside CAS there is often radar assistance from various providers, they may not give you radar CONTROL, but they will give traffic info and confirm your position, whilst we do not have the terrain problems you have in NZ (highest ground here is about 3,600') I would have thought even there you should know what your position is near enough to be able to know what your MSA is, heck, I could do THAT with just DR nav!!
I think one reason Pace picked the route he did is because there is no CAS, including airways, below 10,000' and it goes over high ground including very close to mount Snowdon which is the highest terrain in the UK! Edited to add - highest in the UK outside of Scotland!
I think one reason Pace picked the route he did is because there is no CAS, including airways, below 10,000' and it goes over high ground including very close to mount Snowdon which is the highest terrain in the UK! Edited to add - highest in the UK outside of Scotland!
Last edited by foxmoth; 6th Feb 2017 at 13:34.
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Just had a quick look at NZ rules and airspace classifications, which are of course very different to the UK.
NZ
Controlled airspace A, C, D. Appears organised like the US for Class C and D. Class A is the same as UK airways, but appears to only be high level for commercial jet traffic.
There are 'Airways' in class G that are defined routes that guarantee terrain clearance. It is mandatory to be receiving traffic information if operating under IFR, but appears to rely on self separation for collision avoidance.
UK
Airways are almost always class A and can be quite low level.
Class C is used like the the US Class A to ensure all aircraft are under positive control at 'jet' levels.
Class G, there is absolutely no requirement to talk to anyone or receive any service IFR or VFR, VMC or IMC.
There are no (or almost no) Class G advisory routes, and the Class F routes are in very remote areas. So effectively, 'all' airways are controlled.
most GA IFR flights are on random routes where altitudes for sufficient terrain clearance are established by the pilot during flight planning.
NZ
Controlled airspace A, C, D. Appears organised like the US for Class C and D. Class A is the same as UK airways, but appears to only be high level for commercial jet traffic.
There are 'Airways' in class G that are defined routes that guarantee terrain clearance. It is mandatory to be receiving traffic information if operating under IFR, but appears to rely on self separation for collision avoidance.
UK
Airways are almost always class A and can be quite low level.
Class C is used like the the US Class A to ensure all aircraft are under positive control at 'jet' levels.
Class G, there is absolutely no requirement to talk to anyone or receive any service IFR or VFR, VMC or IMC.
There are no (or almost no) Class G advisory routes, and the Class F routes are in very remote areas. So effectively, 'all' airways are controlled.
most GA IFR flights are on random routes where altitudes for sufficient terrain clearance are established by the pilot during flight planning.
There are 'Airways' in class G that are defined routes that guarantee terrain clearance. It is mandatory to be receiving traffic information if operating under IFR, but appears to rely on self separation for collision avoidance.
2 s
Avoid imitations
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If I remember correctly, in UK there used to be something similar called "Advisory routes".
But they couldn't be defined as Airways there.
But they couldn't be defined as Airways there.
2 sheds: So they are not, by definition, airways. Even to put the word in quotes is completely misleading.
I can assure you they are Airways that mm_flynn is referring to.
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An airway is: a control area or portion thereof established in the form of a corridor. (ICAO Annex 11)
A control area (CTA) is an aviation term that describes a volume of controlled airspace
Controlled Airspace is defined as airspace of defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification.
Last edited by foxmoth; 7th Feb 2017 at 07:57.
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Interesting, I get the airway/corridor bit, but I always that a Control Area was airspace around a Control Zone that did not go all the way to the deck, like the second tier on a upside wedding cake.
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Stop it, you're making me hungry...
I think pilots in the US forget that all of the US is controlled airspace by ICAO definition - class E everywhere from 700/1200ft AGL. So any airway will be in CAS and require a clearance to fly IFR. Whereas the U.K. Is mostly class G.
I think pilots in the US forget that all of the US is controlled airspace by ICAO definition - class E everywhere from 700/1200ft AGL. So any airway will be in CAS and require a clearance to fly IFR. Whereas the U.K. Is mostly class G.