CAA approves Night, IMC and IFR for permit types

[ETOPS]

This should increase the value of your homebuilt


http://www.lightaircraftassociation....0procedure.pdf

Always thought it strange that you couldn't use some of the incredible equipment available today.

Well done everybody concerned.

[Mike Flynn]

The old multi thousand hour Cessna's and Pipers are now semi worthless.

Keeping them flying and the cost per hour of an old PA28 does not make sense.

Looking back through my log books around 85 % of my four seat flying was with two empty seats. That means I was paying a fortune for the odd occasion when I took friends flying.

[alex90]

What's the deal with flying abroad in such a "home-built"? Do you need to contact each state independently and request permission to fly in their airspace? Or is as simple as filing a flight plan?

Only asking because I have been very interested in a few home-built which were far more capable than currently in production planes and am seriously considering purchasing a kit, or even go to Glasair in the states to do their "Two Weeks To Taxi" courses! But I would like to be able to get out of UK airspace, and go to places where I am better welcomed, and better looked after both before and after landing!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Your apparently simple question doesn't get a simple answer.

However the full 24 page answer, courtesy of the LAA is here...

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...dJbbciAyRCHMHA

G

[18greens]

This is good news indeed.

Now this decision has arrived how much do we need to spend to create an ifr platform. Is it twin gtn650 at £20+k or is there a creative ipad based nav/approach software that will be acceptable?

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are a couple of Technical Leaflets on the LAA website, and it's all pretty thorough.

I'm pretty certain that a standard club C152 actually wouldn't meet the criteria, but equally a well equipped homebuilt will. LAA are clearly covering their backs by erring on the side of stringency somewhat - whether that'll be relaxed in time remains to be learned. A iPad definitely won't do it.

G

[blueandwhite]

Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer

Your apparently simple question doesn't get a simple answer.

However the full 24 page answer, courtesy of the LAA is here...

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...dJbbciAyRCHMHA

G

In reality its quite easy and feasible to fly around europe. Some states do require an email or letter to secure permission, but its normally given with out hesitation.

[TheOddOne]

The old multi thousand hour Cessna's and Pipers are now semi worthless.

Keeping them flying and the cost per hour of an old PA28 does not make sense.

Looking back through my log books around 85 % of my four seat flying was with two empty seats. That means I was paying a fortune for the odd occasion when I took friends flying.

Really? Last point first. I bet around 85% of your driving in a 4-seat car is with 2 (or more) empty seats. Perhaps you run a 2-seat car, I don't know, but the vast majority of cars on the road have many empty seats in them. That doesn't mean they should all be scrapped - the utility value of multi-seat vehicles for occasional full occupancy justifies the extra costs of lugging those empty seats round.

Now, cost per hour. There's a thing! I'd say there's are passing few people who actually work out the REAL hourly rate for running their aircraft, including depreciation, ALL maintenance, fuel, insurance, hangarage, landing card/fees etc. So go out and buy a new aircraft if you think it's so much better than a 30 yr old C172 or PA28, then work out the REAL hourly rate and tell me it's cheaper. It just isn't.
The hourly rate on our PA28 Archer is £168, including VAT, all landing fees, contribution to a properly managed engine fund, all maintenance and a contingency for unexpected expenses. The PA28 is fully equipped for IFR and night flying and handles weather quite well, so it can be flown on many more days than the microlights and more lightly loaded a/c around. OK, you could own your own aircraft but our figures are based on 300+ hours a year, no private pilot is going to be able to do that many hours.

TOO

TOO

[Capt Kremmen]

That 'semi worthless' comment is quite right and has been so for some time. I realise that a/c choice is determined - to a large extent by what you want to do with it. Most of my GA flying has been with the heavier types; irreverently referred to as 'spamcans'.


I came to my senses when presented with the invoice for hardly any work at all amounting to a whisker under ten thousand pounds for the Annual on my Robin. I sold the a/c and bought Permit. Apart from night and IFR my flying was the same. Now, apparently I have the benefit of both.


TOO, I have benefited by thousands of pounds in terms of massive savings on fuel, maintenance and servicing costs. I use LAMS as my guide and do all my own servicing. Every contingency you listed is included in my balance sheet, including car fuel to the strip where the a/c is hangared. I fly, in a Group A a/c, for £48 per hour variable according to the cost of mogas and which includes an hourly amount of £12 for servicing and the engine fund. The hourly rate can vary again according to hours flown and their effect on fixed costs


The a/c I fly, is in some respects, better than the old fashioned stuff but in others; cruise speed for example, it is not so good.


Jay Sata's comments are correct. These old types have had their day, that is why you can pick 'em up for peanuts !

[Boxter]

Spamcans

Great News,

Will that mean we can purchase non TSO instruments and radios at a big reduction than the TSO price!

PA28 great value for money, 10 to 20 k to purchase a reasonable one, maintain it to the LAMP. Leaves me with a lot of change out of 60-80k that you would pay for an RV?

[Rod1]

I have been flying a permit aircraft for the last 10 years. It has cost me under £50 per hour all in. That includes all the items you mention excluding landing fees. She has been flown all over Europe. The clerance for IFR flight will impact the second hand values of many low end c of a types like PA28/C172.

Rod1

[alex90]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer View Post
Your apparently simple question doesn't get a simple answer.

However the full 24 page answer, courtesy of the LAA is here...

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...dJbbciAyRCHMHA

G
In reality its quite easy and feasible to fly around europe. Some states do require an email or letter to secure permission, but its normally given with out hesitation.

Thank you GTE and B&W for that information! It looks like most countries I would consider going to are covered by the blanket rules, except Spain and Eastern Adriatic which I'd love to do at some point!

Capt Kremmen - what kind of machine do you fly? £50 per hour sounds incredibly tempting!! Albeit I fear that it won't really suit my mission statement.

TheOddOne - I do agree with you on the 4 seat issue. I actually often wish I had 6 seats which made me think about a Saratoga for some time. I also looked at renting a Cessna Caravan to take a group of us out... Not easy to find!

There are however some incredibly performant home builts out there... The Lancair and the Glasair III have more than double your Archer's cruise speed for instance, and new, the Glasair would be closer to a third of the cost of the Archer. (Ok the Lancair is battling against the TBM930 / Meridian but is less than a quarter of their relative costs new and is only a little more than you're paying for your brand new Archer!).

To have a fair comparison - perhaps the Glasair Sportsman and the C172 might be a fairer battle. Sportsman in their Two Weeks To Taxi starts at $200k (that's including their help and build plan, EFIS...etc..), a new Cessna 172 starts at around $325k that's around 162% more. And for that you have a Cessna that... Flies 20kts slower, has 200nm less range, requires 200' less in both takeoff and landing distances, has a climb rate 300fpm lower, and has a ceiling of some 6,000' lower than the Sportsman.

The figures talk for themselves really... I mean - I love GA as much as anyone... But I have not (yet) won the lottery, and am on a very limited budget which I try to stretch out throughout the year and this is my only limiting factor to my average of 50 hours per year. And if that same cash will take me 3-4 times further, and enable me to fly 150-200 hours a year - I would be able to fly that (very) easily. (I mean unless you put me in a Lancair because I'd be wherever I need/want to be so fast it'll probably be difficult use more than 100 hours per year!!

300+ hours a year, no private pilot is going to be able to do that many hours.

Remove my budget restrictions, and I would gladly fly that number of hours. So many places to discover, so many people to meet, so many adventures to be had! If I fly 7-8 hours in a single day (which has happened) I would smash through that in less than 45 days (which equates to a day a week, or only 3.75 days a month).

[robin]

I came to my senses when presented with the invoice for hardly any work at all amounting to a whisker under ten thousand pounds for the Annual on my Robin.

What sort of work was that! We've owned our Robin for nearly 15 years and have never had a bill approaching that.

We've had lots of discussions about moving to a Permit type but we'll stick with our DR400 as it does what we want.

[Capt Kremmen]

Wish I could give you the details but, it was about fifteen years ago. I remember that the maintenance facility was located at Denham. It wasn't even the 'Star' annual as was.


If I had the deep pockets required for a certified a/c and that a/c was a DR400, I wouldn't change it. They are the most friendly and silkily smooth GA a/c I've ever flown.

[md 600 driver]

Is there going to be any permissions for CAA permit to fly aircraft

Steve

[robin]

If I had the deep pockets required for a certified a/c and that a/c was a DR400, I wouldn't change it. They are the most friendly and silkily smooth GA a/c I've ever flown.

Ours has never needed deep pockets. In fact in comparison with some of the Permit fleet it is quite inexpensive to operate. Fortunately we didn't have to fund the Spar AD, but then some of the Permit fleet have issues equally expensive

My view is that you find the aeroplane you want and which fits your mission profile whether it is CofA or Permit and work out a sustainable plan to fund it.
We've been running for some time now and we plan to stay with our DR400 as long as our medicals allow.

[blueandwhite]

Originally Posted by Boxter

Great News,

Will that mean we can purchase non TSO instruments and radios at a big reduction than the TSO price!

PA28 great value for money, 10 to 20 k to purchase a reasonable one, maintain it to the LAMP. Leaves me with a lot of change out of 60-80k that you would pay for an RV?

As long as you don't mind having less fun and don't mind losing the profit you would make when selling the RV you will be happy.

[Capt Kremmen]

md 600 driver


If I've interpreted your question correctly, the 'permissions' are already there. The CAA operates the Permit system which is administered thru' the LAA and the BMAA.

[md 600 driver]

Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen

md 600 driver


If I've interpreted your question correctly, the 'permissions' are already there. The CAA operates the Permit system which is administered thru' the LAA and the BMAA.

No there's no link to the LAA or BMAA it's a CAA permit to fly

[tmmorris]

He's talking about warbirds and the like.