Routes to PPL(A) with gliding
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Routes to PPL(A) with gliding
For a long time, I've wanted to do a PPL and have had some trial flights. My brother advised me to take up gliding instead and convert further down the line if I still wanted to.
I'm now an early solo glider pilot, enjoying gliding and wish to continue doing it, but still wish to go for a PPL(A) in the near future. So I've been trying to figure out how to get there.
From what I can fathom, the options are
Is my understanding around this correct? From what I can gather, you have to have at least 45 hours power flying unless you take the 10% P1 hours gliding credit route.
Given the cost of flying schools, choosing one of the TMG routes would seem to be best, the only difference between them being the amount of instruction. I can hours build on a TMG for £50 p/h at my local club, so would probably go the LAPL(S) -> +TMG -> PPL route, possibly picking up a LAPL(A) along the way. I'm not sure if they can provide the instructional bits or if I need to go elsewhere.
Given the lower costs of flying a TMG or microlight, why isn't the LAPL(A) -> PPL conversion route more popular generally, given it's all the same number of hours?
I'm now an early solo glider pilot, enjoying gliding and wish to continue doing it, but still wish to go for a PPL(A) in the near future. So I've been trying to figure out how to get there.
From what I can fathom, the options are
- Go straight for a PPL (45 hrs min)
- Get a LAPL(A) TMG or SEP (30 hours instructional) then 15 hours PPL conversion
- Get a LAPL(S), then do a TMG conversion (6 hours) then 21 hours building with 3 instructional for a LAPL(A), then 15 hours PPL conversion
- Get a LAPL(S), then do a PPL (35 hours min with 100 P1 gliding hours)
- Get a LAPL(S), then do a TMG conversion (6 hours) then 24 hours building, then 15 hours PPL conversion
Is my understanding around this correct? From what I can gather, you have to have at least 45 hours power flying unless you take the 10% P1 hours gliding credit route.
Given the cost of flying schools, choosing one of the TMG routes would seem to be best, the only difference between them being the amount of instruction. I can hours build on a TMG for £50 p/h at my local club, so would probably go the LAPL(S) -> +TMG -> PPL route, possibly picking up a LAPL(A) along the way. I'm not sure if they can provide the instructional bits or if I need to go elsewhere.
Given the lower costs of flying a TMG or microlight, why isn't the LAPL(A) -> PPL conversion route more popular generally, given it's all the same number of hours?
As you're already a solo sailplane pilot and intend to continue gliding, I would recommend gaining the LAPL(S) first. Then, as you're fortunate enough to have access to a TMG, include the TMG extension to the LAPL(S).
When you're ready, apply for a LAPL(A) based on credit available for the LAPL(S)+TMG.
The LAPL(A) can include sailplane towing, night, aerobatic and mountain ratings and may be used in any EASA Member State. The main restriction is that it cannot include any instrument flying qualification, although the LAPL(S) can include a Sailplane Cloud Flying Rating (for sailplanes only, not TMGs). Neither may a LAPL(A) include any instructional certificates.
No rush for a PPL really - I reckon that the LAPL(A) would suit most of your needs for quite a while! Get a good reputation around the sailplane world and you could find that hours building as a tug pilot might well be possible!
When you're ready, apply for a LAPL(A) based on credit available for the LAPL(S)+TMG.
The LAPL(A) can include sailplane towing, night, aerobatic and mountain ratings and may be used in any EASA Member State. The main restriction is that it cannot include any instrument flying qualification, although the LAPL(S) can include a Sailplane Cloud Flying Rating (for sailplanes only, not TMGs). Neither may a LAPL(A) include any instructional certificates.
No rush for a PPL really - I reckon that the LAPL(A) would suit most of your needs for quite a while! Get a good reputation around the sailplane world and you could find that hours building as a tug pilot might well be possible!
I'm not sure if the TMG extension on the LAPL(S) is a "goer" at the moment, as
the BGA is not an ATO at the moment. You may have to wait a year or two for that.
There is one other way that may be cheaper, and that is to do your NPPL SLMG
from the glider pilot licence ( LAPL (S) ); that is a min of 10 hrs, in practice about 20 hrs. Get the SSEA rating on the NPPL then convert that lot to an LAPL
with TMG and (A) .
Worked for 2 pilots at my gliding club.
the BGA is not an ATO at the moment. You may have to wait a year or two for that.
There is one other way that may be cheaper, and that is to do your NPPL SLMG
from the glider pilot licence ( LAPL (S) ); that is a min of 10 hrs, in practice about 20 hrs. Get the SSEA rating on the NPPL then convert that lot to an LAPL
with TMG and (A) .
Worked for 2 pilots at my gliding club.
Great advice from both BEagle & kestrel539; typical for both of them.
Cautions:
1. Not all outfits are offering all possible courses at the moment.
(you will have heard that the gliding world is avoiding the ridiculous world of licences for a while yet)
2. Beware of focusing just on hours: there are more importance considerations; competence and fun to mention a couple.
Sounds like you've made a good start.
Cautions:
1. Not all outfits are offering all possible courses at the moment.
(you will have heard that the gliding world is avoiding the ridiculous world of licences for a while yet)
2. Beware of focusing just on hours: there are more importance considerations; competence and fun to mention a couple.
Sounds like you've made a good start.
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Building on what kestral539 says, it can be difficult to do a TMG rating. You need an ATO with a TMG and a Flight Instructor with a TMG rating on his/her licence.
There are very few EASA instructors (see BGA website) who have a TMG rating so trying to find a place to train is difficult. There are even less examiners.
Most instruction in motorgliders is for the NPPL. This is due to the organisation carrying out the training not being an ATO, and/or because of the instructor not being an EASA FI.
Follow BEagle's advice and you won't go wrong.
There are very few EASA instructors (see BGA website) who have a TMG rating so trying to find a place to train is difficult. There are even less examiners.
Most instruction in motorgliders is for the NPPL. This is due to the organisation carrying out the training not being an ATO, and/or because of the instructor not being an EASA FI.
Follow BEagle's advice and you won't go wrong.
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Thanks very much for all your advice. I'd heard the BGA were becoming an ATO, but it sounds like that's still on the horizon.
From what I can understand then, I should get my Bronze + XC. With this I can get a glider pilot licence (which under the transitional arrangements can be used to apply for a LAPL(S)).
If I do that relatively quickly, then Kesterl539's NPPL route is an option. 10+ hours under instruction on SMLG (min 2 dual), then do a "conversion" (loosely defined) to SSEA. After a further 6 hours PIC on SSEA then I can convert to a LAPL(A). Presumably I can get the SMLG instruction at my local club and then go to a flight school for the conversion?
If it doesn't look like I'll get that done by 2018, then the route confirmed by BEagle would be the best way to go, as by then (hopefully) the BGA should be an ATO, or at the least there should be more certified instructors and examiners about. In the short term it seems I may struggle to find training via this route, however given I have more money to save and a Bronze + XC to get first, this may not be an issue.
I'm not necessarily concerned about lowest hours, but doing some of my training on motorgliders should help make things more affordable (and be fun). I agree I probably don't need a PPL yet either which should help.
Tugging is a long term objective - but my local club require potential tug pilots to have a Silver C and a decent number of hours on power before they're considered.
From what I can understand then, I should get my Bronze + XC. With this I can get a glider pilot licence (which under the transitional arrangements can be used to apply for a LAPL(S)).
If I do that relatively quickly, then Kesterl539's NPPL route is an option. 10+ hours under instruction on SMLG (min 2 dual), then do a "conversion" (loosely defined) to SSEA. After a further 6 hours PIC on SSEA then I can convert to a LAPL(A). Presumably I can get the SMLG instruction at my local club and then go to a flight school for the conversion?
If it doesn't look like I'll get that done by 2018, then the route confirmed by BEagle would be the best way to go, as by then (hopefully) the BGA should be an ATO, or at the least there should be more certified instructors and examiners about. In the short term it seems I may struggle to find training via this route, however given I have more money to save and a Bronze + XC to get first, this may not be an issue.
I'm not necessarily concerned about lowest hours, but doing some of my training on motorgliders should help make things more affordable (and be fun). I agree I probably don't need a PPL yet either which should help.
Tugging is a long term objective - but my local club require potential tug pilots to have a Silver C and a decent number of hours on power before they're considered.
Gondukin,
I would hope that you will have got your Bronze C and x/c by this Aug, that
gives you time for some some SLMG tuition before winter winter sets in.
Get the writtens out of the way during that time, then back to gliding and SLMG training. NPPL SLMG by this time next year?
Good luck.
I would hope that you will have got your Bronze C and x/c by this Aug, that
gives you time for some some SLMG tuition before winter winter sets in.
Get the writtens out of the way during that time, then back to gliding and SLMG training. NPPL SLMG by this time next year?
Good luck.
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Some interesting stuff here. I have recently qualified with BGA Bronze + XC and plan to convert to EASA SPL soon as I'm doing some gliding in Italy now and plan to do some outside of Europe too (thus SPL not LAPL(S) ). As I build my PIC hours up gliding I'll look at getting a powered licence too but my main aim is to enjoy gliding at the moment and get my silver badge.
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The route I took (which is still available) is a 10 hour conversion to the NPPL. You can then do a paperwork exercise and convert it to a LAPL(A) or do a straight 15 hour PPL(A) conversion.
First of all, well done and it’s great that you’re enjoying the gliding experience.
This. So much this.
Let’s face it: unless you turn professional, flying is always going to cost you money. Many approach aviation with cost uppermost in mind and guess what? They mostly fall by the wayside as they begrudge every minute in the air, so do less and less until they are no longer current or competent then give up.
Either you like it or you don’t. If you don’t, try something else; if you do, welcome to the club! We’ve had (and have) some members who love flying but for whatever reason, have never progressed beyond the basic stages and mostly fly dual. We also have world champions in the making. Whatever floats your boat.
Also, as with any qualification, are you going to put it to use once you’ve got it? What’s your “mission profile”? Power and gliding differ substantially in this respect and unless you have an immediate use in mind, gaining unpowered experience is not a bad thing to do.
If you apply yourself a bit, every flight improves your skill level. The hours don’t really count, it’s the increasing competence that’s its own reward. Yes, it’s probably cheaper to learn the basics in a Eurofox over an SR22 but it’s important not to fixate on it. I remember a friend of mine some years ago doing his instrument rating remarking that if he had a pile of coins and a slot to put them in, he couldn’t have fed them in fast enough to pay for the exercise, once you added the CAA fees and twin hire into the equation. He also said that he had to put this out of his mind otherwise he’d end up having to do it all over again!
All that said, the NPPL route is one of the better ones.
Beware of focusing just on hours: there are more importance considerations; competence and fun to mention a couple.
Let’s face it: unless you turn professional, flying is always going to cost you money. Many approach aviation with cost uppermost in mind and guess what? They mostly fall by the wayside as they begrudge every minute in the air, so do less and less until they are no longer current or competent then give up.
Either you like it or you don’t. If you don’t, try something else; if you do, welcome to the club! We’ve had (and have) some members who love flying but for whatever reason, have never progressed beyond the basic stages and mostly fly dual. We also have world champions in the making. Whatever floats your boat.
Also, as with any qualification, are you going to put it to use once you’ve got it? What’s your “mission profile”? Power and gliding differ substantially in this respect and unless you have an immediate use in mind, gaining unpowered experience is not a bad thing to do.
If you apply yourself a bit, every flight improves your skill level. The hours don’t really count, it’s the increasing competence that’s its own reward. Yes, it’s probably cheaper to learn the basics in a Eurofox over an SR22 but it’s important not to fixate on it. I remember a friend of mine some years ago doing his instrument rating remarking that if he had a pile of coins and a slot to put them in, he couldn’t have fed them in fast enough to pay for the exercise, once you added the CAA fees and twin hire into the equation. He also said that he had to put this out of his mind otherwise he’d end up having to do it all over again!
All that said, the NPPL route is one of the better ones.
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If you do choose to go the slmg nppl route as I did, I can happily recommend Oxfordshire Sport Flying at Enstone. They were accomodating friendly and very supportive.
Whichever way you go, good luck!
Whichever way you go, good luck!
If you do chose to move over to conventional powered light aircraft please leave any of the too typical " I am a Sky God because I have a Silver Badge " attitude behind. I had one of those once and it got old fast. I do admit I had a nice moment of schadenfreud when he made a mess of his first practice forced approach after insisting that he knew everything about it and did not need any preparatory ground instruction........
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I went from gliding to SLMG(A) to conversion to PPL(A) - as it was then - in days when there were rather fewer choices. It wasn't a planned route, indeed I never set out to start gliding, but the results have been life-changing.
Since my experience is thirty to twenty years out of date, the only point of my contribution is to say whichever route you go, enjoy it all the way. You may get addicted to any part en route. Or all.
Since my experience is thirty to twenty years out of date, the only point of my contribution is to say whichever route you go, enjoy it all the way. You may get addicted to any part en route. Or all.
