SR20 Diesel
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SR20 Diesel
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Should I
1) Buy a new diesel engine
or
2) Bet on the FTSE100 being above 7500 by the summer?
Answers on a postcard.
Ok, I know, I know, somebody has to support new technology "otherwise there would not be any innovation"
1) Buy a new diesel engine
or
2) Bet on the FTSE100 being above 7500 by the summer?
Answers on a postcard.
Ok, I know, I know, somebody has to support new technology "otherwise there would not be any innovation"
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To be fair Deltahawk seem to have the resources and more particularly the persistence to get their engine certified.
Of course how well it will work once the general pilot population get let lose on it who knows? Regettably the answer is probably there will be a few snags, which will probably cost customers money. Such are things aeronautical.
The power pulse issue may be significantly less with this engine, compared with a Theilert, as it is a 2 stroke which will make it a lot smoother.
Of course how well it will work once the general pilot population get let lose on it who knows? Regettably the answer is probably there will be a few snags, which will probably cost customers money. Such are things aeronautical.
The power pulse issue may be significantly less with this engine, compared with a Theilert, as it is a 2 stroke which will make it a lot smoother.
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I thought that a lot of the big marine diesels were 2 stroke. I don't think that we should think in terms of 2 stroke motor cycle engines or lawn mower engines.
Still looks heavey compared to Mr. Lycomeing's products. Though I suppose we should add fuel weight and engine weight for the mission to be fair.
Still looks heavey compared to Mr. Lycomeing's products. Though I suppose we should add fuel weight and engine weight for the mission to be fair.
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Yes the large marine engines are all 2 stroke. The only thing which hurts their reliaiblity is starting (compressed air so clyinder cracking) and clyinder lubrication (lots of individual lubricator quills - blockage leads to rings going and cylinder wear). But 100,000 hrs is not exceptional.
If the mechanical aspects of the engine are good then turbine reliability is a possibility.
The Deltahawk engine is water cooled but can produce a reasonable level of power (30 odd percent) without cooling. So compression ignition, mechanical fuel pump - it has all the ingredients - if the mechanical engineering is good.
If the mechanical aspects of the engine are good then turbine reliability is a possibility.
The Deltahawk engine is water cooled but can produce a reasonable level of power (30 odd percent) without cooling. So compression ignition, mechanical fuel pump - it has all the ingredients - if the mechanical engineering is good.
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I have to say that I am cynical about this whole diesel thing, about five years back when one of the hopeful new diesel companys was saying that they were on the brink of launching the much talked of engine on the market we offerd them a deal to put the engine into a popular aircraft that is used for touring and (of more interest to us) glider tugging.
We would do all the airframe & instalation work to get the STC as we were assured that it would get certification.
With over 2000 of these aircraft in Europe you would think that they would have jumped at the chance....just think of the engine sales!..........but No! they would not provide us with an engine (they would still own it) for test flying, they said we would have to buy the engine dispite the fact that we would have to put in work that far exceeded the value of the engine.
As that point I got to thinking that the whole project was a scam to get goverment R & D funding and the thing would never get further than a few research aircraft.
The deltahawk engine looks by far the best aviation deisel that I have seen so far and I hope that it can meet the expectations of the makers but I cant help thinking that the future is with the Lycoming FADEC mogas engine.
We would do all the airframe & instalation work to get the STC as we were assured that it would get certification.
With over 2000 of these aircraft in Europe you would think that they would have jumped at the chance....just think of the engine sales!..........but No! they would not provide us with an engine (they would still own it) for test flying, they said we would have to buy the engine dispite the fact that we would have to put in work that far exceeded the value of the engine.
As that point I got to thinking that the whole project was a scam to get goverment R & D funding and the thing would never get further than a few research aircraft.
The deltahawk engine looks by far the best aviation deisel that I have seen so far and I hope that it can meet the expectations of the makers but I cant help thinking that the future is with the Lycoming FADEC mogas engine.
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As that point I got to thinking that the whole project was a scam to get goverment R & D funding and the thing would never get further than a few research aircraft.
The deltahawk engine looks by far the best aviation deisel that I have seen so far and I hope that it can meet the expectations of the makers but I cant help thinking that the future is with the Lycoming FADEC mogas engine.
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Think of the positive side though, Avtur costs a lot less here in ireland than 100LL and it should be a lot more stable in the event of a crash. Added reliability of an engine is something that should definitely be looked forward to especially when we live on an island, although this new hybrid idea might have benefits too.
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According to Aviation Consumer the engine would drive the propeller directly (no gearbox) and due to the reduced coupling pulse even metal propellers are possible. Also according AC (but it's an article from june 2009) the main problems would be high oil consumption and of course the failing of some of the more sensitive components now and then.
I really hope they get the job done and bring out a class A product. You can argue endlessly about the need for an aerodiesel engine, but if I see that petrol companies
nowadays don't have the slightest interest in distributing lead-free avgas when it already exists then I know I shouldn't expect anything from them. Too bad for Hjelmco and GAMI who do an excellent job...
I really hope they get the job done and bring out a class A product. You can argue endlessly about the need for an aerodiesel engine, but if I see that petrol companies
nowadays don't have the slightest interest in distributing lead-free avgas when it already exists then I know I shouldn't expect anything from them. Too bad for Hjelmco and GAMI who do an excellent job...
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I think what will happen is what has always happened which is that the US market will drive developments.
So we will have the existing engines running off unleaded avgas, with FADEC or whatever.
GAMI are apparently dragging their heels on certification but they would be fools to run ahead of the market. Nobody in the USA will run ahead of the market demand.
Here in Europe, despite the "EU consumer protection" firms can bring out barely tested products and have them fail all over the place, and wash their hands of it for the most part (thus protecting the main business) because here you can sue for your economic loss only, which in most private GA scenarios is by definition not a lot and anyway most people don't have the stomach for it. I have just managed to force a conman builder to repair a job worth 4 digits; he is an expert and knew exactly how long to string it out for; only a surveyor's report made the penny drop that a CCJ would be the next step. An aviation company - any aviation company - will be equally adept at this game because most face unhappy customers on a daily basis.
The diesel market is of marginal relevance in the USA because of their very good avgas distribution.
Here in Europe, avtur still makes sense for GA but only for a small number of pilots that do serious touring around the more southern parts; the rest of the avtur/piston case hangs on tax concessions, but only a fool will want to build a long term business model, with substantial capital investment, on a tax break. Exploiting tax breaks is fine for making a fast buck where there is a quick and easy controlled-liability exit strategy if it all falls apart.... hmmmm I may be describing an existing engine/airframe manufacturer a bit too closely there
So we will have the existing engines running off unleaded avgas, with FADEC or whatever.
GAMI are apparently dragging their heels on certification but they would be fools to run ahead of the market. Nobody in the USA will run ahead of the market demand.
Here in Europe, despite the "EU consumer protection" firms can bring out barely tested products and have them fail all over the place, and wash their hands of it for the most part (thus protecting the main business) because here you can sue for your economic loss only, which in most private GA scenarios is by definition not a lot and anyway most people don't have the stomach for it. I have just managed to force a conman builder to repair a job worth 4 digits; he is an expert and knew exactly how long to string it out for; only a surveyor's report made the penny drop that a CCJ would be the next step. An aviation company - any aviation company - will be equally adept at this game because most face unhappy customers on a daily basis.
The diesel market is of marginal relevance in the USA because of their very good avgas distribution.
Here in Europe, avtur still makes sense for GA but only for a small number of pilots that do serious touring around the more southern parts; the rest of the avtur/piston case hangs on tax concessions, but only a fool will want to build a long term business model, with substantial capital investment, on a tax break. Exploiting tax breaks is fine for making a fast buck where there is a quick and easy controlled-liability exit strategy if it all falls apart.... hmmmm I may be describing an existing engine/airframe manufacturer a bit too closely there
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may be you can expand on that statement?
I didn't crosscheck this statement or anything but generally, I like AC's follow-up on this matter.
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I think it is remarkable that Diamond survived the issues they had with Theilert. It will be interesting whether they have learnt from Thielert's mistakes with the Austro engine.
In my mind there is no doubt that the Diesel concept has many advantages. Whether it is a characteristic of diesel engines or not I dont know but everyone who can should experience how quiet and smooth the diesels are in a DA42. Swap from a DA42 to any other twin or single and the difference is remarkable.
Diesel has of course other advantages. Like it or not the day will come I guess when lead is banned and if GA continues to diminsh in the way it has more and more airports will be reluctant to stock Avgas. Diesels are more fuel efficient and, at least in theory, should be more robust.
Time will tell and doubtless there will be a few more disasters along the way. Sad to say innovation is a dangerous game in aviation.
In my mind there is no doubt that the Diesel concept has many advantages. Whether it is a characteristic of diesel engines or not I dont know but everyone who can should experience how quiet and smooth the diesels are in a DA42. Swap from a DA42 to any other twin or single and the difference is remarkable.
Diesel has of course other advantages. Like it or not the day will come I guess when lead is banned and if GA continues to diminsh in the way it has more and more airports will be reluctant to stock Avgas. Diesels are more fuel efficient and, at least in theory, should be more robust.
Time will tell and doubtless there will be a few more disasters along the way. Sad to say innovation is a dangerous game in aviation.
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I think it is remarkable that Diamond survived the issues they had with Theilert. It will be interesting whether they have learnt from Thielert's mistakes with the Austro engine.
Only a Private Joe Bloggs buying in his own name would have had the whole-plane under one warranty. And then this has any meaning only if you are actually willing to SUE.
Speaking to some owners, the Diamond factory has been extremely pro-active in keeping cold-feet customers on the side and to stop cash p*ssing out of every corner no matter what it takes. A friend of mine who ordered a DA42 but wanted out because they could not deliver it (with working engines), and was able to cancel, was offered the earth and everything on it by Diamond's boss face to face, including a special discount on the D-Jet. The man could obviously have a 2nd career selling ice to Eskimos; expecting somebody to show such a piece of faith... in this case it didn't work and the chap (a smart businessman himself) got out.
And those who had nowhere to go were (in every case I have spoken to) treated the way one would expect to be treated by a company which has to conserve cash totally regardless of the long term hit on its reputation. I know several DA42 owners personally, quite well. All would AFAIK jump ship instantly, but it is always cheaper for them to throw 5 (nearly 6) digits at their plane than to take the hit on offloading it at a derisory price. Only those going personally bankrupt will be doing the latter.
I can see renters being happy with the plane. I have flown in a DA42 and it is a nice plane. Smoother than my TB20 but then I would expect that of a twin. A slick modern cockpit with a significantly lower noise level than unpressurised avgas burners. But, like a grandparent, you hand the kids back in the evening
I've been in a manufacturing business for 31 years and would never treat my customers in this way. It stinks. I can see Diamond had to do it because a businessman's 1st duty is to protect the business even if it means shafting everybody outside, but he should not have put himself in that position in the first place. He should have tested the product properly. The failures appeared very early on so it's obvious that very little real testing went on. The certification process means nothing when it comes to long term reliability; it is a set of exercises done by a test pilot. He should have built a dozen planes and gave them to a sample of the user base, monitoring them constantly, and ran that for a year.
But then I am in B2B where long term reputation and solid products and customer service are 100% of the game.
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It seems they have designed a bespoke engine? I hope they succeed because I think that one of the issues with other attempts was trying to get an automotive engine to work in an aircraft. You're trying to achieve something very different in a car and you're just increasing your modes of failure with gearboxes and clutches.
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I don't think there is any automatic "destiny to fail" by using a car engine as the starting point.
What is needed is somebody who is going to build a batch of these, give them away to a bunch of real users, and see what breaks, for a year or two.
Nobody is likely to do this, however, because it drives a 1-2 year hole into the business plan on which the vulture capitalists who are prob99 backing them are banking
The financiers are looking for a well defined exit, not too far in the future, and certainly before any problems start to show up. They are not interested in delivering a proven product, or indeed any product.
The cost of doing a real usage test is going to be 1 or 2 million quid.
What is needed is somebody who is going to build a batch of these, give them away to a bunch of real users, and see what breaks, for a year or two.
Nobody is likely to do this, however, because it drives a 1-2 year hole into the business plan on which the vulture capitalists who are prob99 backing them are banking
The financiers are looking for a well defined exit, not too far in the future, and certainly before any problems start to show up. They are not interested in delivering a proven product, or indeed any product.
The cost of doing a real usage test is going to be 1 or 2 million quid.