Redhill Circuits.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: www.tiovicente.com
Age: 44
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Redhill Circuits.
Can anyone give me some good advice?
I've got about 1 hour left of my 4 hour circuit session for my PPL and I always seem a bit high. I can't really get the PAPIS to line up, with the white lights usually showing and I think that it's mainly a result of flying in the winter with the higher/gustier winds that has "encouraged" me to fly in a bit higher and faster.
I understand that you should be able to take your hands off the controls (I haven't bothered as such) for about 5 seconds without making any adjustments but I find that on final, I'm usually adjusting the power 2 - 3 times before I'm happy.
Does it really matter at this stage? Or is it something that you get better at with more practice?
Cheers All.
I've got about 1 hour left of my 4 hour circuit session for my PPL and I always seem a bit high. I can't really get the PAPIS to line up, with the white lights usually showing and I think that it's mainly a result of flying in the winter with the higher/gustier winds that has "encouraged" me to fly in a bit higher and faster.
I understand that you should be able to take your hands off the controls (I haven't bothered as such) for about 5 seconds without making any adjustments but I find that on final, I'm usually adjusting the power 2 - 3 times before I'm happy.
Does it really matter at this stage? Or is it something that you get better at with more practice?
Cheers All.
You'll improve with practice.
As your experience increases you'll be able to notice smaller deviations & trends, and be able to see them sooner.
This will allow you to make corrections before the deviation becomes large.
Initially calm, smooth flying conditions will help you to develop a ' baseline' technique from which you can develop your skills to cope with the more wild & woolly conditions.
As your experience increases you'll be able to notice smaller deviations & trends, and be able to see them sooner.
This will allow you to make corrections before the deviation becomes large.
Initially calm, smooth flying conditions will help you to develop a ' baseline' technique from which you can develop your skills to cope with the more wild & woolly conditions.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: www.tiovicente.com
Age: 44
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aerbabe. Don't think this will work as it's only been the last two days that I've even noticed the PAPIS!
What I'm seeing I'm happy with - that is a little too high rather than too low
but I was just wondering if I'm completely crap or just a bit "out" on my approach.
What I'm seeing I'm happy with - that is a little too high rather than too low
but I was just wondering if I'm completely crap or just a bit "out" on my approach.
High Flying Bird
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Old Sarum ish
Posts: 2,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There goes that idea then!Shouldn't think you're completely crap, or your instructor wouldn't let you out
Perhaps it isn't the power you should be adjusting on final, but trim. The way I've been taught is to choose a power setting you know should work, and then trim to get the right approach speed. If you're coming in too high, then next time round try taking a bit off the power setting.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: www.tiovicente.com
Age: 44
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheers, I'll try that. I think that I'm trying to also "keep away" from the M23 and the trees that are just prior to the threshold.
Anyway, I'll try your idea tomorrow. If it doesn't work then I can blame you as I know it won't be my fault!
Anyway, I'll try your idea tomorrow. If it doesn't work then I can blame you as I know it won't be my fault!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sennadog
Repeating Aerobabes' good advice, turn the PAPIS off.
What will you do when you go to an airfield without
that facility ?
What you need to master is SMALL power changes on
final will lead to a stabilised approach. It takes practise,
but you have to anticipate sink and react accordingly.
Repeating Aerobabes' good advice, turn the PAPIS off.
What will you do when you go to an airfield without
that facility ?
What you need to master is SMALL power changes on
final will lead to a stabilised approach. It takes practise,
but you have to anticipate sink and react accordingly.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Kent
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
High approaches
Is it not better to fly high approaches as opposed to approaches perfectly on the PAPIs?
I've always thought PAPIs were for when the vis is crappy, and aimed towards the "bigger aeroplanes" as it will suit their g/s angle better?
Surely higher approaches are better to be able to do, as if something goes wrong with the donkey, you have more height to play with, and also it's better as it keeps noise down for those on the ground.
Just my thoughts as a very inexperience student PPL.
tKF
I've always thought PAPIs were for when the vis is crappy, and aimed towards the "bigger aeroplanes" as it will suit their g/s angle better?
Surely higher approaches are better to be able to do, as if something goes wrong with the donkey, you have more height to play with, and also it's better as it keeps noise down for those on the ground.
Just my thoughts as a very inexperience student PPL.
tKF
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kentish
You are correct in stating the PAPIS are really for the
"big boys" on lond 10 mile finals.
However, to fly an approach too high for an inexperienced
PPL might quite well lead to an unwanted dive for runway.
Obviously this will be at a much greater speed and very
dangerous.
You are correct in stating the PAPIS are really for the
"big boys" on lond 10 mile finals.
However, to fly an approach too high for an inexperienced
PPL might quite well lead to an unwanted dive for runway.
Obviously this will be at a much greater speed and very
dangerous.
High Flying Bird
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Old Sarum ish
Posts: 2,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good point about the trees and motorway Sennadog. On the final approach to Wellesbourne (can't remember which r/w) you fly over a big hill. It's difficult to forget about it and fly a normal approach... but if you don't there's no way you can get down in time. Good luck... and don't you dare blame me!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: kent
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sennadog - you've made me feel a hell of a lot better I thought it was only me having trouble with landing (AerBabe knows all about this and has been more than helpful in her emails to me -Thanks AB ). Not only am I flying in too high sometimes (although my instructor says he likes to see 2 whites), I can also be too low. too fast and too slow.:o I'm still persevering and hope to land a good one, one day. Any advice is more than welcome.
I thought it was only me having trouble with landing (AerBabe knows all about this and has been more than helpful in her emails to me -Thanks AB ). Not only am I flying in too high sometimes (although my instructor says he likes to see 2 whites), I can also be too low. too fast and too slow.:o I'm still persevering and hope to land a good one, one day. Any advice is more than welcome.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 80
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This might not work with club aircraft, particularly if you fly several different ones, but I was taught to "learn" the correct power settings for the various configurations.
So written on my pad is that X is so many knots trimmed straight & level; Y (no trim change) will get me a 500fpm descent; gear and flaps down and Z will get 80 knots and 3 degrees down; and so on.
Using those, I can "set" the power and know it's going to be within a spit of right. There may be slight adjustments needed, but not a lot. It's a bit more to learn, but once you have it, flying is a lot easier.
You might need a weight adjustment - solo vs loaded, full vs empty tanks. Actually makes very little difference in our particular beast.
So written on my pad is that X is so many knots trimmed straight & level; Y (no trim change) will get me a 500fpm descent; gear and flaps down and Z will get 80 knots and 3 degrees down; and so on.
Using those, I can "set" the power and know it's going to be within a spit of right. There may be slight adjustments needed, but not a lot. It's a bit more to learn, but once you have it, flying is a lot easier.
You might need a weight adjustment - solo vs loaded, full vs empty tanks. Actually makes very little difference in our particular beast.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida,Essex, or Shoreham.
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sennadog,
My instructor taught me thus.
When established on final, trim for your approach speed, then kill the power, trim and maintain airspeed. Forget the PAPI'S look at the threshold. Try to keep the position of the threshold constant in the winscreen, MAINTAINING airspeed. If the threshold starts dissapearing under the nose, you are too high, if the threshold starts climbing up the windscreen, add a little power, but only until it stays in position. You should then be able to fly down the glide slope. Worked for me anyway! Good luck.
Iain.
My instructor taught me thus.
When established on final, trim for your approach speed, then kill the power, trim and maintain airspeed. Forget the PAPI'S look at the threshold. Try to keep the position of the threshold constant in the winscreen, MAINTAINING airspeed. If the threshold starts dissapearing under the nose, you are too high, if the threshold starts climbing up the windscreen, add a little power, but only until it stays in position. You should then be able to fly down the glide slope. Worked for me anyway! Good luck.
Iain.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chichester, UK
Posts: 871
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been taught the same thing as Iain, and it works well for me too. Well, normally - had a definite 
:o on a glide approach recently. Still, reassuring to know that you can thump a PA-28 in that hard without breaking it.... 
I also wouldn't bother worrying about the PAPIs. I'd find them more of a distraction than anything else. Just make sure that the airspeed is correct you're not obviously high or low and a small adjustment in power is all you need to get things sorted out.
:o on a glide approach recently. Still, reassuring to know that you can thump a PA-28 in that hard without breaking it.... I also wouldn't bother worrying about the PAPIs. I'd find them more of a distraction than anything else. Just make sure that the airspeed is correct you're not obviously high or low and a small adjustment in power is all you need to get things sorted out.
1. You should definitely ask for the PAPIs to be switched off.
2. Try asking to be taught the 'point and power' technique which some are alluding to above. Most people find it much, much easier than any other system. It works for any aeroplane type if your final turn has been flown correctly.
2. Try asking to be taught the 'point and power' technique which some are alluding to above. Most people find it much, much easier than any other system. It works for any aeroplane type if your final turn has been flown correctly.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: North Weald, UK
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Senna,
Try not to get fixated on the PAPIs, I used to make a complete hash of things when I looked at them. Now I don't have any to look at, (different airfield), I just make a partial hash of it!
The trick is to get your speed nailed on final, get it in trim & then leave the trim alone. Then play the throttle all the way down onto the ground - lots of very small adjustments.
Try not to get fixated on the PAPIs, I used to make a complete hash of things when I looked at them. Now I don't have any to look at, (different airfield), I just make a partial hash of it!
The trick is to get your speed nailed on final, get it in trim & then leave the trim alone. Then play the throttle all the way down onto the ground - lots of very small adjustments.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chichester, UK
Posts: 871
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EVP
Personally I think that your problem is here:
"Not only am I flying in too high sometimes ... I can also be too low, too fast and too slow"
Get the speed right and the rest tends to follow - then if you're too low, add power. Too high, reduce power. Simple. Just keep the speed right...
Obviously, if you're at idle and you're still too high on short final then it's time for plan "B", which is probably a go around.
EVO
Personally I think that your problem is here:
"Not only am I flying in too high sometimes ... I can also be too low, too fast and too slow"
Get the speed right and the rest tends to follow - then if you're too low, add power. Too high, reduce power. Simple. Just keep the speed right...
Obviously, if you're at idle and you're still too high on short final then it's time for plan "B", which is probably a go around.
EVO
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sennadog,
All the advice about ignoring the PAPIs is right - and, in fact, it sounds like you're doing just fine as you are! TheKentishFledgling and others are quite right - PAPIs are there for the big guys, and you should be above them.
If you follow the path of the PAPIs in a PA28 or a C152, you'll be coming in very flat, and need quite a lot of power. So much so that, if the engine were to quit, you'd have absolutely no chance of making it to the field.
This doesn't apply to the big guys - first of all, they have two or more engines, so they're not so worried about engine failuers, and secondly it takes a while for jet engines to spool up once you push the thrust levers forward, so they must come in flat and use lots of power, or else they wouldn't be able to go around safely! (Or something like that, anyway - haven't actually got to fly the big metal myself yet, so I might have the details slightly wrong.)
Good luck - sounds like you'll be going solo soon!
FFF
-----------
All the advice about ignoring the PAPIs is right - and, in fact, it sounds like you're doing just fine as you are! TheKentishFledgling and others are quite right - PAPIs are there for the big guys, and you should be above them.
If you follow the path of the PAPIs in a PA28 or a C152, you'll be coming in very flat, and need quite a lot of power. So much so that, if the engine were to quit, you'd have absolutely no chance of making it to the field.
This doesn't apply to the big guys - first of all, they have two or more engines, so they're not so worried about engine failuers, and secondly it takes a while for jet engines to spool up once you push the thrust levers forward, so they must come in flat and use lots of power, or else they wouldn't be able to go around safely! (Or something like that, anyway - haven't actually got to fly the big metal myself yet, so I might have the details slightly wrong.)
Good luck - sounds like you'll be going solo soon!
FFF
-----------