Redhill Circuits.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
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EVP,
Evo gives good advice - you must get the speed right. But don't fixate on the ASI! I know that sounds like a contradiction, but bear with me...
You should have flown enough approaches by now to know the correct attitude on final. The trick is to fly this attitude! If you do that, the speed will be right - you can glance at the ASI occassionally (every 3 or 4 seconds at the most) to confirm, but you shouldn't need to make anything except the smallest changes.
Not convinced? Ok, here's the theory part. We know that speed and angle of attack are pretty much interchangeable in straight flight. So what you really need to do is keep the angle of attack right. And, ignoring any nasty winds, for any given vertical speed, each attitude will give you a specific angle of attack. So if you learn the attitude, and fly the attitude, the speed will follow.
All it takes is practice - keep at it! Good luck,
FFF
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Evo gives good advice - you must get the speed right. But don't fixate on the ASI! I know that sounds like a contradiction, but bear with me...
You should have flown enough approaches by now to know the correct attitude on final. The trick is to fly this attitude! If you do that, the speed will be right - you can glance at the ASI occassionally (every 3 or 4 seconds at the most) to confirm, but you shouldn't need to make anything except the smallest changes.
Not convinced? Ok, here's the theory part. We know that speed and angle of attack are pretty much interchangeable in straight flight. So what you really need to do is keep the angle of attack right. And, ignoring any nasty winds, for any given vertical speed, each attitude will give you a specific angle of attack. So if you learn the attitude, and fly the attitude, the speed will follow.
All it takes is practice - keep at it! Good luck,
FFF
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Join Date: Feb 2001
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sennadog - as you refer to M23 and trees and PAPIs you are referring to approaches to 28L/R... I usually find myself coming in a bit high on this approach for this reason: the pass over the motorway tend to lift you up a bit (warm air off the tarmac, I guess) but the area ahead of the threshhold with the trees always seems to give you sink of even greater rate than the previous climb... therefore, I seem to get very close to the trees if I follow the PAPIs exactly. Not good 
I'm not saying the PAPIs are wrong - I'm sure it's my flying! But i find my landings are better if I come in on two whites until the sink over the greenery beford the 28 threshold...
Hersh
I'm not saying the PAPIs are wrong - I'm sure it's my flying! But i find my landings are better if I come in on two whites until the sink over the greenery beford the 28 threshold...
Hersh
Oops!
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Sennadog:
Have you thought of going up to Biggin to do one or two circuits? I know that it's more expensive there but with a strip that's nearly 2 kilometers long there's a lot more room to play with plus the asphalt may help give you a clearer 'image' in your mind of the approach than the grass strips at Redhill.
Have you thought of going up to Biggin to do one or two circuits? I know that it's more expensive there but with a strip that's nearly 2 kilometers long there's a lot more room to play with plus the asphalt may help give you a clearer 'image' in your mind of the approach than the grass strips at Redhill.
Thread Starter
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Cheers guys and gals!
I now know what happened yesterday. What I believe was going wrong - wasn't! For the first time yesterday I was more relaxed and confident but not too confident. Consequently, I had a bit more time and started to concentrate a bit more on the PAPIS lights and being very critical of myself (that's my nature) I thought that I was ballsing it up when I probably wasn't.
Sometimes my approaches are a bit too high for sure. Today, my second touch and go ended up in a go-around but this was as a result of not extending the base leg enough so that as I turned onto final I didn't have enough room to descend sufficiently, thus ending up too high.
Basically, I'm expecting a perfect approach that a 747 Captain would make and obviously I'm not anywhere near that capable....
Sux to be me, huh?
Hersham Boy I'm referring to the PAPIS lights on 26L/26R coming in over the M23.
Hehe. Sorry mate, I had to get that one in.
So, as per your advice, everyone, I'm now not using the PAPIS as a "measuring stick" other than keeping half an eye on it in case it all goes red but I've gone back to my old way of just measuring the whole approach by eye/pitch/desent rate.
Once again, thanks for taking the time and trouble to help me out.
Regards, Sennadog.
I now know what happened yesterday. What I believe was going wrong - wasn't! For the first time yesterday I was more relaxed and confident but not too confident. Consequently, I had a bit more time and started to concentrate a bit more on the PAPIS lights and being very critical of myself (that's my nature) I thought that I was ballsing it up when I probably wasn't.
Sometimes my approaches are a bit too high for sure. Today, my second touch and go ended up in a go-around but this was as a result of not extending the base leg enough so that as I turned onto final I didn't have enough room to descend sufficiently, thus ending up too high.
Basically, I'm expecting a perfect approach that a 747 Captain would make and obviously I'm not anywhere near that capable....
Sux to be me, huh?
Hersham Boy I'm referring to the PAPIS lights on 26L/26R coming in over the M23.
Hehe. Sorry mate, I had to get that one in.So, as per your advice, everyone, I'm now not using the PAPIS as a "measuring stick" other than keeping half an eye on it in case it all goes red but I've gone back to my old way of just measuring the whole approach by eye/pitch/desent rate.
Once again, thanks for taking the time and trouble to help me out.
Regards, Sennadog.
Not so N, but still FG
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I second what FFF says: fly by attitude. "LEARN the attitudes" said my instructor 97 times during every flight and every de-briefing. My rubbish circuit flying got so much better whenever he covered up the ASI. I am still guilty sometimes of looking at the ASI too much, but much less than I used to be. I don't even know how to spell PAPI, and have never knowingly looked at one. Most GA fields don't have them and, as FFF says, they aren't intended for us in our puddle jumpers.
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When I learnt I would always be too fast because I was worried about getting too close to the stall. This was soon fixed by flying from Derby with runways which were about 340 metres long 
.
I agree with the previous posters - get the airspeed right by trimming then sort the decent rate out using small power adjustments. As mentioned previously, get the airspeed right, but don't fixate on it - the things which are going to kill you are outside the aeroplane so that's where you should be looking as much as possible. If it's not going too well, don't be afraid to do a go-round and try again. Good pilots do go-rounds, poor ones carry on and hope it all turns out OK.
Also, don't be too harsh on yourself - approaches and landings always look better from outside. I've had some absolute shockers only to be told when I walked into the clubhouse 'Oooh, nice landing!'
. I agree with the previous posters - get the airspeed right by trimming then sort the decent rate out using small power adjustments. As mentioned previously, get the airspeed right, but don't fixate on it - the things which are going to kill you are outside the aeroplane so that's where you should be looking as much as possible. If it's not going too well, don't be afraid to do a go-round and try again. Good pilots do go-rounds, poor ones carry on and hope it all turns out OK.
Also, don't be too harsh on yourself - approaches and landings always look better from outside. I've had some absolute shockers only to be told when I walked into the clubhouse 'Oooh, nice landing!'
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Errrrrr.... 26L/R.... right. I was...errrrr.... referring to the fact that I usually land at a 20deg angle to the runway to make it more challenging.... not that I don't know my @rse from my elbow.... 
Hersh
Hersh
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Thanks again everyone - you're a great bunch for taking time out to offer advice. I have even printed out the postings ! - sad or what!
Just to fill you in I have had 1.5 hrs in circuits/landings and I was quite pleased with the first lesson (45mins) - managed to get on the ground (sort of) most times, but the second lesson was a nightmare - you know - all over the place nearly every time. Think I landed (bounced) only once the others were go-rounds/instructor interventions.
I can relate to many of your comments especially - "thought I might fly into the ground" - that certainly went through my mind and I kept checking airspeed. Perhaps I am not looking outside enough. The fact that there always seemed to be someone lined up waiting to take off as I was trying to land was very off-putting .:o Well, I'll be trying again on Friday so I'm hoping to put your advice into practice.
I have even printed out the postings ! - sad or what! Just to fill you in I have had 1.5 hrs in circuits/landings and I was quite pleased with the first lesson (45mins) - managed to get on the ground (sort of) most times, but the second lesson was a nightmare - you know - all over the place nearly every time. Think I landed (bounced) only once the others were go-rounds/instructor interventions.
I can relate to many of your comments especially - "thought I might fly into the ground" - that certainly went through my mind and I kept checking airspeed. Perhaps I am not looking outside enough. The fact that there always seemed to be someone lined up waiting to take off as I was trying to land was very off-putting .:o Well, I'll be trying again on Friday so I'm hoping to put your advice into practice.
High Flying Bird
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Covered absolutely everything I could think of in my email EVP. Chin up, and report back on Friday
(although I'll be having a jolly old time at the GatBash over the weekend, so you'll have to wait until Monday for my pearls of wisdom
)
(although I'll be having a jolly old time at the GatBash over the weekend, so you'll have to wait until Monday for my pearls of wisdom
)
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Just reporting back on my Friday lesson and to say TYTYTY!
It didn't start too well as my instructor said we would be using a different runway and a left hand circuit (my previous circuit lessons had been on a rh)! However, this time armed with your advice and a different frame of mind, the lesson went a dream instead of a nightmare. It even went quickly!
I seemed to have more time and didn't panic, tried to keep the attitude/speed right and, you know, IT WORKED! I wouldn't go so far as to say I've mastered it but, at least, I now feel more confident, calm and back on track. Thanks everyone.
It didn't start too well as my instructor said we would be using a different runway and a left hand circuit (my previous circuit lessons had been on a rh)! However, this time armed with your advice and a different frame of mind, the lesson went a dream instead of a nightmare. It even went quickly!
I seemed to have more time and didn't panic, tried to keep the attitude/speed right and, you know, IT WORKED! I wouldn't go so far as to say I've mastered it but, at least, I now feel more confident, calm and back on track. Thanks everyone.
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sennadog
During the last two weeks I have done about 4 1/2 hours circuits at Redhill and I haven't used the PAPIS once, not even looked at them although I know they are there.
When using 26L I found that when I set up for approach immediately after turning from downwind to base (along this little road) I have enough time to get the speed right and trim the aircraft before turning onto final. Then I can relax a bit and just concentrate on aiming at the numbers.
GAF4139
During the last two weeks I have done about 4 1/2 hours circuits at Redhill and I haven't used the PAPIS once, not even looked at them although I know they are there.
When using 26L I found that when I set up for approach immediately after turning from downwind to base (along this little road) I have enough time to get the speed right and trim the aircraft before turning onto final. Then I can relax a bit and just concentrate on aiming at the numbers.
GAF4139
