Glider Pilots Rt
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I've just looked this up, CAA Safety Sense leaflet 22 says the following:-
"the radio operator must also be in possession of a Flight Radiotelephony Operators Liceense (FRTOL). Glider pilots and student pilots under training are exempt from the requirement to hold a FRTOL. However, glider pilots without a FRTOL are confined to the use of air/ground communication using the nominated 'glider frequencies' ".
Interesting, so when a glider pilot without a radio license but, say carrying an ICOM, lands out at a GA airfield, they would be breaking the law by making circuit calls on the airfield frequency. Strikes me that there's something wrong there somewhere.
G
"the radio operator must also be in possession of a Flight Radiotelephony Operators Liceense (FRTOL). Glider pilots and student pilots under training are exempt from the requirement to hold a FRTOL. However, glider pilots without a FRTOL are confined to the use of air/ground communication using the nominated 'glider frequencies' ".
Interesting, so when a glider pilot without a radio license but, say carrying an ICOM, lands out at a GA airfield, they would be breaking the law by making circuit calls on the airfield frequency. Strikes me that there's something wrong there somewhere.
G
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bournemouth
I have to admit I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would criticise, let alone prosecute, a glider pilot who was using a non-glider frequency in a manner which improved flight safety, no matter what the regulations may say.
FFF
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FFF
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From: UK
One is inclined to suggest that one of two solutions are needed.
(1) The american approach - abolish the requirement for an RT license altogether and simply bollock anybody who mis-uses it.
(2) Make gliders stick to the same approach as powered, students under training to, say, Silver-C, may use RT under instructional supervision but are expected to go and get a license.
Contradictory approaches, but either should work, it's the current halfway house that seems absurd.
G
(1) The american approach - abolish the requirement for an RT license altogether and simply bollock anybody who mis-uses it.
(2) Make gliders stick to the same approach as powered, students under training to, say, Silver-C, may use RT under instructional supervision but are expected to go and get a license.
Contradictory approaches, but either should work, it's the current halfway house that seems absurd.
G
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 647
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From: UK
Sorry I'm late to this thread, but a few points I have not seen (or missed) elsewhere:
Glider pilots (gp's) most commonly encounter other gliders, and only few powered A/C, on cross countries. Collision avoidance is almost entirely by see and avoid, not constant position reporting etc.. Listening to FIS's would add little useful data and lots of irrelevant info distracting from the task in hand.
Gliding frequencies generally give useful information to glider pilots - who is finding good conditions where, etc. Most gp's monitor those, or switch off. In any case, carriage of radio in class G is not mandatory, of course.
Crosscountry workload is not comparable with power x-country flying - both demand skills but in different ways. When thermalling, extracting the maximum energy needs constant attention. Between thermals, one is like a power pilot who has lost his engine and needs to do something about it pretty quickly (in our case, find another thermal, hopefully close to track, and use it).
The law on gliding use of radio is a bit of an ass. Theoretically AIUI we are supposed to use our allocated channels only for air-ground position reports. In practice we use 130.1, 130.125 and 130.4 for air-air transmissions. The latter is used primarily for cloud flying to avoid collisions and for general cross-country flying, the others mainly for various specific purposes (training and competitions). 129.975 is for gliding aerodrome calls, limited to 10 miles and 3000 feet. 129.9 is only legal for ground-ground for gliders (other air users have it for ground-air). Gp's can use the gliding frequencies without a licence PROVIDED that the apparatus cannot be switched to a non-gliding frequency, so not for 760 channel Icoms (not a lot of perople know that, and I suspect it is honoured more in the breach than observance).
Increasing numbers of gp's get radio licences as it is becoming more useful for various reasons. At my club, operating at North Weald a lot, we have to have licences to talk to the tower so most solo pilots are qualified.
My club's other site is Ridgewell, just outside the Stansted CAS, and we have a letter of agreement whereby we notify when we are flying and they advise potentially conflicting traffic (virtually all GA going round the CAS, almost no inbound/outbound movements) if they can find time. My colleagues mostly don't normally monitor Essex Radar. I am an exception - I often do, when flying close to the CAS, partly because I spend some time in IMC or close to the edges of the CAS. Once when taking photographs over Haverhill, just below the 3500 CAS, I heard them routing someone round their CAS towards me. I tried to call up to advise my manoeuvrings, and was told to stay outside CAS and virtually shut up and not bother them with my unimportant call. They apparently have time to talk to spamcans going round them but not gliders.
I use to be chairman of the BGA Airspace Committee, and I worked with the Competition people to improve task selection so that comps. would not normally take fleets of gliders through instrument approaches in open FIR (as it was then) or too close to CAS. Unfortunately, as in most fields of human endeavour, sometimes mistakes were made and unfortunate tasks were chosen. Even so, there are penalties for gp's who bust airspace during comps. and for non-comp. pilots who do it in pursuit of other gliding achievenents - GPS loggers have made it easier and more effective to police. GPS has also made it easier to avoid CAS in the first place.
For landing at essentially powered A/C aerodromes, I call up when I can, and so do many others. (In practice, it is rare to do so - maybe 5-8 percent of my outlandings have been at such aerodromes - it's far more often into a farm field). If someone is non-radio and has to land, I believe they are in the position of being the commander of an aircraft with a legal responsibility to minimise risk to to crew and aircraft; the aerodrome may be their safest option at the time.
Hope this helps.
Glider pilots (gp's) most commonly encounter other gliders, and only few powered A/C, on cross countries. Collision avoidance is almost entirely by see and avoid, not constant position reporting etc.. Listening to FIS's would add little useful data and lots of irrelevant info distracting from the task in hand.
Gliding frequencies generally give useful information to glider pilots - who is finding good conditions where, etc. Most gp's monitor those, or switch off. In any case, carriage of radio in class G is not mandatory, of course.
Crosscountry workload is not comparable with power x-country flying - both demand skills but in different ways. When thermalling, extracting the maximum energy needs constant attention. Between thermals, one is like a power pilot who has lost his engine and needs to do something about it pretty quickly (in our case, find another thermal, hopefully close to track, and use it).
The law on gliding use of radio is a bit of an ass. Theoretically AIUI we are supposed to use our allocated channels only for air-ground position reports. In practice we use 130.1, 130.125 and 130.4 for air-air transmissions. The latter is used primarily for cloud flying to avoid collisions and for general cross-country flying, the others mainly for various specific purposes (training and competitions). 129.975 is for gliding aerodrome calls, limited to 10 miles and 3000 feet. 129.9 is only legal for ground-ground for gliders (other air users have it for ground-air). Gp's can use the gliding frequencies without a licence PROVIDED that the apparatus cannot be switched to a non-gliding frequency, so not for 760 channel Icoms (not a lot of perople know that, and I suspect it is honoured more in the breach than observance).
Increasing numbers of gp's get radio licences as it is becoming more useful for various reasons. At my club, operating at North Weald a lot, we have to have licences to talk to the tower so most solo pilots are qualified.
My club's other site is Ridgewell, just outside the Stansted CAS, and we have a letter of agreement whereby we notify when we are flying and they advise potentially conflicting traffic (virtually all GA going round the CAS, almost no inbound/outbound movements) if they can find time. My colleagues mostly don't normally monitor Essex Radar. I am an exception - I often do, when flying close to the CAS, partly because I spend some time in IMC or close to the edges of the CAS. Once when taking photographs over Haverhill, just below the 3500 CAS, I heard them routing someone round their CAS towards me. I tried to call up to advise my manoeuvrings, and was told to stay outside CAS and virtually shut up and not bother them with my unimportant call. They apparently have time to talk to spamcans going round them but not gliders.
I use to be chairman of the BGA Airspace Committee, and I worked with the Competition people to improve task selection so that comps. would not normally take fleets of gliders through instrument approaches in open FIR (as it was then) or too close to CAS. Unfortunately, as in most fields of human endeavour, sometimes mistakes were made and unfortunate tasks were chosen. Even so, there are penalties for gp's who bust airspace during comps. and for non-comp. pilots who do it in pursuit of other gliding achievenents - GPS loggers have made it easier and more effective to police. GPS has also made it easier to avoid CAS in the first place.
For landing at essentially powered A/C aerodromes, I call up when I can, and so do many others. (In practice, it is rare to do so - maybe 5-8 percent of my outlandings have been at such aerodromes - it's far more often into a farm field). If someone is non-radio and has to land, I believe they are in the position of being the commander of an aircraft with a legal responsibility to minimise risk to to crew and aircraft; the aerodrome may be their safest option at the time.
Hope this helps.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Hampshire, UK
I agree with the previous comments about workload, meandering flightpath and tendency to fly heads-up. As a green cross-country pilot, I'm already pretty busy with just 'aviate' and 'navigate'!
There's a cultural aspect, though: not only do glider pilots tend to dislike driving around on instruments (conversely I've flown with some earlyish PPLs who spend far too much time heads-down, especially on hazy days), but in their early years at least they have virtually no contact with R/T operation. Unless you fly from a general aviation airfield, or there are particular local considerations, you'll probably not need a radio until you've flown your Silver C cross-country - a good couple of years or so (rather more in my case). Even then, a lot of pilots will rarely venture more than 10-20 miles from their home airfield, and if there are busy areas, they'll simply avoid them. Only the pundits will find much use for the radio... and in competitions, courtesy calls to the local FIS won't be popular if they distract you from soaring or let the opposition know too much about your movements.
When it came to renew my R/T licence a year or so ago, I was asked for logbook evidence of vhf usage - something that we don't record in the standard BGA logbook. All was duly sorted out very smoothly, but it suggested that the radio licencing folk at the CAA don't deal with many glider pilots as such. On asking around at the airfield, I found that few glider pilots have R/T licences unless they also have a PPL.
I got my licence because it seemed useful, interesting and vaguely responsible and, as I've lately been flying from a licenced airfield, it has in the end proved handy. Apart from the routine circuit calls, though, I barely use it enough to stay in proper practice. Renewal isn't cheap - £57 last time. The initial course and licence cost rather more, and the test itself is largely concerned with situations that are completely unfamiliar to glider pilots.
So here's a question: assuming that (unless I win the lottery...) I only make half a dozen cross-country flights a year on my very slow path to punditry, should I really distract myself and everyone else with ropey courtesy calls when I'm near controlled airspace? If so, how near and how often? Remember that while we can give an intended course, we may depart from it by miles, hours and thousands of feet; alternatively, if we're all to call in updates every ten miles or so, what'll happen on a sunny summer's day in Oxfordshire? And how well DO we show up on radar, by the way?
If advisory calls will help slow the creeping expansion of controlled airspace then I guess I'm pleased to comply ... but in the end they are called Visual Flight Rules.
Tim
There's a cultural aspect, though: not only do glider pilots tend to dislike driving around on instruments (conversely I've flown with some earlyish PPLs who spend far too much time heads-down, especially on hazy days), but in their early years at least they have virtually no contact with R/T operation. Unless you fly from a general aviation airfield, or there are particular local considerations, you'll probably not need a radio until you've flown your Silver C cross-country - a good couple of years or so (rather more in my case). Even then, a lot of pilots will rarely venture more than 10-20 miles from their home airfield, and if there are busy areas, they'll simply avoid them. Only the pundits will find much use for the radio... and in competitions, courtesy calls to the local FIS won't be popular if they distract you from soaring or let the opposition know too much about your movements.
When it came to renew my R/T licence a year or so ago, I was asked for logbook evidence of vhf usage - something that we don't record in the standard BGA logbook. All was duly sorted out very smoothly, but it suggested that the radio licencing folk at the CAA don't deal with many glider pilots as such. On asking around at the airfield, I found that few glider pilots have R/T licences unless they also have a PPL.
I got my licence because it seemed useful, interesting and vaguely responsible and, as I've lately been flying from a licenced airfield, it has in the end proved handy. Apart from the routine circuit calls, though, I barely use it enough to stay in proper practice. Renewal isn't cheap - £57 last time. The initial course and licence cost rather more, and the test itself is largely concerned with situations that are completely unfamiliar to glider pilots.
So here's a question: assuming that (unless I win the lottery...) I only make half a dozen cross-country flights a year on my very slow path to punditry, should I really distract myself and everyone else with ropey courtesy calls when I'm near controlled airspace? If so, how near and how often? Remember that while we can give an intended course, we may depart from it by miles, hours and thousands of feet; alternatively, if we're all to call in updates every ten miles or so, what'll happen on a sunny summer's day in Oxfordshire? And how well DO we show up on radar, by the way?
If advisory calls will help slow the creeping expansion of controlled airspace then I guess I'm pleased to comply ... but in the end they are called Visual Flight Rules.
Tim
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: UK
Windrusher, a few points from my experience for what it's worth.
" . . . should I really distract myself and everyone else with ropey courtesy calls when I'm near controlled airspace? If so, how near and how often?"
I listen (usually Essex Radar, as I did today for 1 1/2 hours) for conflicting traffic. I don't call them unless either I want to go into CAS (as one can request for Stansted's class G), or they seem to be working someone who is heading my way. Last time I did the latter, as I noted above, they didn't want to know. When I have requested clearance to enter, I had no actual refusals but some less than helpful clearances (e.g. "not above 2000 feet QNH" - a recipe for landing out. Which I did.) Other airports have been less problematical - e.g cleared through eastern end of E Midlands, OK to land at Yeovil.
Practice saying what you need to (for a position report and the service you want). Listen to the spamcans doing it - you can hardly make a worse mess than a few of them do, but if you copy the best you will be accepted as OK to talk to ATC. NEVER go into CAS until you have established contact and have permission - asking afterwards is asking for a prosecution. Park in a thermal if necessary. Don't expect to keep up your average X-counrty speed while negotiating CAS.
" . . .if we're all to call in updates every ten miles or so, what'll happen . . .?"
They don't do it like that. When they call to ask your present position and height, just tell them. I often use the phrase "manouevring to gain height 2 miles north west of Ytown, climbing through xx00 feet" or whatever, when thermalling. Alternatively, if they ask you to report when reaching some height or some position, say "Will report when reaching xtown [or xx00 feet]". Listen to how others close off each transmission and copy. It's often in the form "glider XY" rather than "over". When leaving the area, again copy what others do, but typically I use "XX radar, leaving your area to the east, thanks for your help, QSY gliding frequency 130 decimal 4, glider XY". They acknowledge and thank, and that's it.
"And how well DO we show up on radar, by the way? "
Varies from mediocre to badly, but it's not your problem so don't worry. They may ask you to confirm your track - "Glider XY ,are you still tracking west?", or do a turn e.g. left, for corroboration of where they think you are, but not usually.
" . . . should I really distract myself and everyone else with ropey courtesy calls when I'm near controlled airspace? If so, how near and how often?"
I listen (usually Essex Radar, as I did today for 1 1/2 hours) for conflicting traffic. I don't call them unless either I want to go into CAS (as one can request for Stansted's class G), or they seem to be working someone who is heading my way. Last time I did the latter, as I noted above, they didn't want to know. When I have requested clearance to enter, I had no actual refusals but some less than helpful clearances (e.g. "not above 2000 feet QNH" - a recipe for landing out. Which I did.) Other airports have been less problematical - e.g cleared through eastern end of E Midlands, OK to land at Yeovil.
Practice saying what you need to (for a position report and the service you want). Listen to the spamcans doing it - you can hardly make a worse mess than a few of them do, but if you copy the best you will be accepted as OK to talk to ATC. NEVER go into CAS until you have established contact and have permission - asking afterwards is asking for a prosecution. Park in a thermal if necessary. Don't expect to keep up your average X-counrty speed while negotiating CAS.
" . . .if we're all to call in updates every ten miles or so, what'll happen . . .?"
They don't do it like that. When they call to ask your present position and height, just tell them. I often use the phrase "manouevring to gain height 2 miles north west of Ytown, climbing through xx00 feet" or whatever, when thermalling. Alternatively, if they ask you to report when reaching some height or some position, say "Will report when reaching xtown [or xx00 feet]". Listen to how others close off each transmission and copy. It's often in the form "glider XY" rather than "over". When leaving the area, again copy what others do, but typically I use "XX radar, leaving your area to the east, thanks for your help, QSY gliding frequency 130 decimal 4, glider XY". They acknowledge and thank, and that's it.
"And how well DO we show up on radar, by the way? "
Varies from mediocre to badly, but it's not your problem so don't worry. They may ask you to confirm your track - "Glider XY ,are you still tracking west?", or do a turn e.g. left, for corroboration of where they think you are, but not usually.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 45
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From: Hampshire, UK
Many thanks for those answers, ChrisN - good practical advice, which I shall heed!
Do you have any idea how many non-PPL UK glider pilots have R/T licences, by the way? Just curious.
Referring to the original thread, it sounds as though you'd have been disinclined to call as part of the pack soaring that escarpment, unless there'd been obvious traffic working the zone - or perhaps if you were approaching cloudbase? I don't know the area, but it strikes me that it may not have been poor task-setting that took them close to a busy zone - a working escarpment could well attract you a few miles off an area of sink on track, and a few miles can be quite a lot in English airspace...
Tim
Do you have any idea how many non-PPL UK glider pilots have R/T licences, by the way? Just curious.
Referring to the original thread, it sounds as though you'd have been disinclined to call as part of the pack soaring that escarpment, unless there'd been obvious traffic working the zone - or perhaps if you were approaching cloudbase? I don't know the area, but it strikes me that it may not have been poor task-setting that took them close to a busy zone - a working escarpment could well attract you a few miles off an area of sink on track, and a few miles can be quite a lot in English airspace...
Tim
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 647
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From: UK
Windrusher:
I have no real idea how many non-PPL UK glider pilots have R/T licences. I am sure is is growing, but I think there are perhaps higher proportions of PPL and ATPL holders gliding than there used to be, too. Just an impression, based on people I meet and see correspondence from.
I try not to need to use lift in places obviously likely to interact with major civil or military traffic. If it is the "only" option, or very much better than anything else, I call them if possible, or leave it and risk landing out.
E.g. 1 - Flew from Devon to Duxford and back to Dunstable at the end of Comp. Enterprise a few years ago - turned Duxford a bit low, only visible lift was edge of Stansted Zone. I called up, explained I wanted to manouevre to gain height up to 2 miles into their zone, got the OK. Climbed enough to glide to N of Luton. Then called Luton, glider pilot ATCO said OK to do a direct glide into Dunstable via their airspace.
E.g. 2, 2 weeks ago turned Newmarket, went on track towards Great Ashfield but only apparent lift was in the edge of Honington/Mildenhall MATZ. At 1500 feet I decided I could not handle the workload of both calling and thermalling accurately, so turned back away from the MATZ, found no more lift, and landed on the gallops near Newmarket (OK to do that after 1300, choosing the right bit on a firm ground day).
Also, I sometimes use a lower bit of thermal under an approach path or similar and leave it after gaining enough height to go look somewhere less contentious before I get high enough to cause the others a problem. I have done it from above too - gone for a thermal over an ATZ, and then turned back to seek or wait for another one if it looked like I would end up dropping down into the ATZ.
I have no real idea how many non-PPL UK glider pilots have R/T licences. I am sure is is growing, but I think there are perhaps higher proportions of PPL and ATPL holders gliding than there used to be, too. Just an impression, based on people I meet and see correspondence from.
I try not to need to use lift in places obviously likely to interact with major civil or military traffic. If it is the "only" option, or very much better than anything else, I call them if possible, or leave it and risk landing out.
E.g. 1 - Flew from Devon to Duxford and back to Dunstable at the end of Comp. Enterprise a few years ago - turned Duxford a bit low, only visible lift was edge of Stansted Zone. I called up, explained I wanted to manouevre to gain height up to 2 miles into their zone, got the OK. Climbed enough to glide to N of Luton. Then called Luton, glider pilot ATCO said OK to do a direct glide into Dunstable via their airspace.
E.g. 2, 2 weeks ago turned Newmarket, went on track towards Great Ashfield but only apparent lift was in the edge of Honington/Mildenhall MATZ. At 1500 feet I decided I could not handle the workload of both calling and thermalling accurately, so turned back away from the MATZ, found no more lift, and landed on the gallops near Newmarket (OK to do that after 1300, choosing the right bit on a firm ground day).
Also, I sometimes use a lower bit of thermal under an approach path or similar and leave it after gaining enough height to go look somewhere less contentious before I get high enough to cause the others a problem. I have done it from above too - gone for a thermal over an ATZ, and then turned back to seek or wait for another one if it looked like I would end up dropping down into the ATZ.
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: behind the lens
I enjoyed reading Chris N's first post. Most informative and brought home all my worst fears!!" I spend some time in IMC"
" take fleets of gliders....."
" avoidance is almost entirely by see and avoid "
A long time ago I had to take avoiding action having been put on a radar heading in Class D airspace - the poor ATCO had no return on that particular glider.
So, you do float around in IMC........ummm.
I always knew to look out for more than one of you - I remember seeing about 20 pass over the golf course one day and was very happy to be on terra firma as I spectated.
I respect everyone's right to experience the joys of flight, but I still feel the hairs on the back of my neck when IMC and the ATCO talks of multiple contacts, primary return, height unverified.
TCAS please save me!
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 647
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From: UK
Sharpshot, I spend some time in IMC in class G, not class D.
I don't bust class D, I either keep out or get permission and keep ATC informed.
I can't help it if some people go into class D without permission - but it is not only, or even mainly gliders who do. I gather there were about 30 busts of Stansted class D by spamcans etc. going into the PFA rally in just one day.
I happen to agree with you about TCAS - unfortunately I have no room, power etc. to fit a transponder. If the CAA's pursuit of a lightweight low cost transponder comes to anything, I will be in the market for one.
Gliders are not the only things that might be IMC in class G. If the airline community want to keep their passengers safe, best stick to CAS wherever they can, and not take short cuts via class G, particularly near gliding clubs. (I know there are places where class G is unavoidable - I'm talking about where it is - I have seen the airmiss/airporx reports, and the claims by airline pilots' representatives that saving fuel takes priority over sticking to CAS.)
I don't bust class D, I either keep out or get permission and keep ATC informed.
I can't help it if some people go into class D without permission - but it is not only, or even mainly gliders who do. I gather there were about 30 busts of Stansted class D by spamcans etc. going into the PFA rally in just one day.
I happen to agree with you about TCAS - unfortunately I have no room, power etc. to fit a transponder. If the CAA's pursuit of a lightweight low cost transponder comes to anything, I will be in the market for one.
Gliders are not the only things that might be IMC in class G. If the airline community want to keep their passengers safe, best stick to CAS wherever they can, and not take short cuts via class G, particularly near gliding clubs. (I know there are places where class G is unavoidable - I'm talking about where it is - I have seen the airmiss/airporx reports, and the claims by airline pilots' representatives that saving fuel takes priority over sticking to CAS.)
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 498
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From: Smurph Castle
I recently overheard an increasingly irate glider pilot and ATCO having a discussion about the glider's whereabouts on the Benson frequency. He (the pilot) was a bit lost and was just warning her that he might brush the corner of her (the controller's) zone. Five minutes later, he was still explaining that he can't guarantee a heading or level, while she was still trying to explain to him that she needed to know where he was which is why he needed to do a left turn for identification...
I felt as I left the frequency that they were destined to keep that going for some time...
He might have got away unnoticed if he'd kept quiet, I suspect, but that doesn't seem a good idea - I reckoned he was already in the zone.
I felt as I left the frequency that they were destined to keep that going for some time...
He might have got away unnoticed if he'd kept quiet, I suspect, but that doesn't seem a good idea - I reckoned he was already in the zone.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 45
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From: Hampshire, UK
The discussion here, and in particular ChrisN’s sensible practical comments (thanks again!), motivated me to spend a wet Sunday looking at the books once more, in turn prompting a few observations…
Matspart3 (and glider pilots might note): There’s a comment in an unfashionable corner of the half-million chart that “Pilots who intend to fly to or route adjacent to aerodromes with IAPs are strongly recommended when flying within 10nm of the aerodrome to contact the aerodrome ATSU.” Five mile finals from an instrument runway seems pretty well covered by that to me. (There’s also the rule about keeping clear of circuit traffic, but five miles looks a long way if you’re used to glider circuits…)
How many of the glider pilots that day had R/T licences, though? I’ve already hinted that even those of us (non-power types) that are legal find chatting to controllers a bit daunting, so maybe there’s some education - spreading encouraging rumours - to be done.
Both the old Upper Heyford Mandatory Radio Area and the new rules about corners of the Brize Norton zone let glider pilots call without holding an R/T licence. If someone in authority had the enthusiasm, that idea could in principle be extended to all glider calls from, say, class G airspace – which ought to limit it to advisory calls, special calls as for Brize, MATZ crossings, and DF requests from the bewildered.
Gengis: that could also include ATZs.
QDM^3: The greatest peril seems to me to be in cloud. That’s one reason – the other being lack of necessary competence - why I don’t fly there, so the following is second hand: but my impression is that most glider pilots reckon the biggest danger is from other gliders, which is why they chatter to each other on 130.4. I’ve yet to see a glider with a second radio, so I don’t imagine they’ll be talking much to nearby airfields or radar at the same time - though it would be wise to do so and someone might correct me. So 130.4 is the frequency to monitor.
(For non-glider pilots: as I understand it, the freedom from official licencing for gliding extends to IMC and, as the BGA’s Laws and Rules say on one of the few pages that doesn’t refer to road trailers, ‘Since gliders are always either climbing or descending and never in steady level cruising flight the “quadrant rule” is irrelevant to them. There are therefore no special rules for IFR flight by gliders outside controlled airspace…’)
ChrisN: The Devon flight in particular sounds wonderful, and an excellent advert for getting an R/T licence. I’d guess that was 500km, maybe a smidgen more?
Tim
Matspart3 (and glider pilots might note): There’s a comment in an unfashionable corner of the half-million chart that “Pilots who intend to fly to or route adjacent to aerodromes with IAPs are strongly recommended when flying within 10nm of the aerodrome to contact the aerodrome ATSU.” Five mile finals from an instrument runway seems pretty well covered by that to me. (There’s also the rule about keeping clear of circuit traffic, but five miles looks a long way if you’re used to glider circuits…)
How many of the glider pilots that day had R/T licences, though? I’ve already hinted that even those of us (non-power types) that are legal find chatting to controllers a bit daunting, so maybe there’s some education - spreading encouraging rumours - to be done.
Both the old Upper Heyford Mandatory Radio Area and the new rules about corners of the Brize Norton zone let glider pilots call without holding an R/T licence. If someone in authority had the enthusiasm, that idea could in principle be extended to all glider calls from, say, class G airspace – which ought to limit it to advisory calls, special calls as for Brize, MATZ crossings, and DF requests from the bewildered.
Gengis: that could also include ATZs.
QDM^3: The greatest peril seems to me to be in cloud. That’s one reason – the other being lack of necessary competence - why I don’t fly there, so the following is second hand: but my impression is that most glider pilots reckon the biggest danger is from other gliders, which is why they chatter to each other on 130.4. I’ve yet to see a glider with a second radio, so I don’t imagine they’ll be talking much to nearby airfields or radar at the same time - though it would be wise to do so and someone might correct me. So 130.4 is the frequency to monitor.
(For non-glider pilots: as I understand it, the freedom from official licencing for gliding extends to IMC and, as the BGA’s Laws and Rules say on one of the few pages that doesn’t refer to road trailers, ‘Since gliders are always either climbing or descending and never in steady level cruising flight the “quadrant rule” is irrelevant to them. There are therefore no special rules for IFR flight by gliders outside controlled airspace…’)
ChrisN: The Devon flight in particular sounds wonderful, and an excellent advert for getting an R/T licence. I’d guess that was 500km, maybe a smidgen more?
Tim
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Windrusher sed...
Both the old Upper Heyford Mandatory Radio Area and the new rules about corners of the Brize Norton zone let glider pilots call without holding an R/T licence. If someone in authority had the enthusiasm, that idea could in principle be extended to all glider calls from, say, class G airspace – which ought to limit it to advisory calls, special calls as for Brize, MATZ crossings, and DF requests from the bewildered.
Gengis: that could also include ATZs.
I comment...
Could somebody explain to me exactly why a glider pilot should be uniquely exempt from the requirement to take a test proving they know how to use a Radio?
Surely either we should make everybody take a license test (for goodness sake, it's no expensive) or eliminate the thing and adapt to the consequences.
G
Both the old Upper Heyford Mandatory Radio Area and the new rules about corners of the Brize Norton zone let glider pilots call without holding an R/T licence. If someone in authority had the enthusiasm, that idea could in principle be extended to all glider calls from, say, class G airspace – which ought to limit it to advisory calls, special calls as for Brize, MATZ crossings, and DF requests from the bewildered.
Gengis: that could also include ATZs.
I comment...
Could somebody explain to me exactly why a glider pilot should be uniquely exempt from the requirement to take a test proving they know how to use a Radio?
Surely either we should make everybody take a license test (for goodness sake, it's no expensive) or eliminate the thing and adapt to the consequences.
G
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Hampshire, UK
Gengis: No reason at all, except that the drift earlier on in this thread seemed to be that folk would like glider pilots to call in situations that are more courtesy (airmanship if you prefer) and not mandatory.
The Upper Heyford MRA was introduced to great opposition from GA users, and the eventual deal was that, to minimize the impact on folk who'd been free to fly in that area beforehand, the call would be mandatory but the licence wouldn't. My guess is that something similar was in mind with the recent change to Brize Norton's airspace.
I certainly make no great pitch for this - I paid my money and got the licence! - but as I see it the choices are
- maintain strict rules about R/T licences, keep them pricey, make renewal bureaucratic and make a lot of noise about expecting polished procedures ... just don't expect light GA to make non-mandatory advisory calls
- push the flight safety / airmanship aspect, and advertise that if the call is valid then a blind eye will be turned to licences; better still, formalize it with an exemption
- change the rules so that the calls become mandatory and, in effect, we no longer have the non-radio option.
The chances of dropping the R/T licence altogether ("eliminate the thing and adapt to the consequences") are nil. Of the above, the second seems most consistent with the views expressed in this thread.
My suggestion was a little flippant, but in terms of fairness to those poor power pilots, I didn't suggest that any exemption would apply where the glider pilot stood to benefit from it (entering class D airspace and so on), only where the calls were of a non-mandatory, advisory nature. Oh, I did suggest DF calls, but if they keep lost pilots out of CAS...
Tim
The Upper Heyford MRA was introduced to great opposition from GA users, and the eventual deal was that, to minimize the impact on folk who'd been free to fly in that area beforehand, the call would be mandatory but the licence wouldn't. My guess is that something similar was in mind with the recent change to Brize Norton's airspace.
I certainly make no great pitch for this - I paid my money and got the licence! - but as I see it the choices are
- maintain strict rules about R/T licences, keep them pricey, make renewal bureaucratic and make a lot of noise about expecting polished procedures ... just don't expect light GA to make non-mandatory advisory calls
- push the flight safety / airmanship aspect, and advertise that if the call is valid then a blind eye will be turned to licences; better still, formalize it with an exemption
- change the rules so that the calls become mandatory and, in effect, we no longer have the non-radio option.
The chances of dropping the R/T licence altogether ("eliminate the thing and adapt to the consequences") are nil. Of the above, the second seems most consistent with the views expressed in this thread.
My suggestion was a little flippant, but in terms of fairness to those poor power pilots, I didn't suggest that any exemption would apply where the glider pilot stood to benefit from it (entering class D airspace and so on), only where the calls were of a non-mandatory, advisory nature. Oh, I did suggest DF calls, but if they keep lost pilots out of CAS...
Tim
Last edited by Windrusher; 15th July 2002 at 18:43.
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Ghengis, The glider pilots' exemption from radio licences dates back to when glider radios were single channel or only very few fixed channels, dedicated to gliding and no other users - a bit like CB for which operators' licences were/are not required (still true?), and like unlicensed operators can today use radio telephones (i.e. mobiles) and certain other equipment with dedicated channels. The last generation of those gliding radios were the Pye Bantams etc., hard-wired using crystals. If any remain in use, they are still restricted to gliding channels only and should never interact with other frequencies.
Operators' licences are of course needed for use of other aviation channels, and for use of radios with capability of changing to non-gliding frequencies (so even a Pye Bantam if any of its crystals was for a non-gliding frequency). All modern radios AFAIAA need operators' licences, simply because they are multichannel.
Windrusher, good point about the advice re aerodromes with IAP's - I bet most people don't know that, and of course it is not mandatory. But commonsense should deter people from circling 5 miles out on an IA - unfortunately the problems, as so often in aviation, are caused by people lacking in that commodity.
The flight I referred to was 347km (in a Ka6E) - I don't think 500 was on that day in wood.
Operators' licences are of course needed for use of other aviation channels, and for use of radios with capability of changing to non-gliding frequencies (so even a Pye Bantam if any of its crystals was for a non-gliding frequency). All modern radios AFAIAA need operators' licences, simply because they are multichannel.
Windrusher, good point about the advice re aerodromes with IAP's - I bet most people don't know that, and of course it is not mandatory. But commonsense should deter people from circling 5 miles out on an IA - unfortunately the problems, as so often in aviation, are caused by people lacking in that commodity.
The flight I referred to was 347km (in a Ka6E) - I don't think 500 was on that day in wood.
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From: Midlands
As long as I'm doing more than 400 kt I don't care where the gliders are. I'm bound to win.
It's much easier to avoid gliders if there's a heads up call as to it's position. As opposed to the standard 'Caution gliding activity' call from ATC.
It's much easier to avoid gliders if there's a heads up call as to it's position. As opposed to the standard 'Caution gliding activity' call from ATC.