Glider Pilots Rt
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Glider Pilots Rt
I haven't heard many glider pilots on the radio let alone asking London information for a FIS. When flying crosscountry, i like to know where other a/c are operating. Are there any other glider pilots who practise this or am i on my own?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Hmm, don't think I've ever heard a glider pilot on the radio either. But I have been told "caution extensive gliding at XXX" when I've been receiving a FIS, several times.
Would be nice to hear from a glider pilot on the subject, but my thoughts are:
- We certainly can't expect glider pilots to carry transponders - the weight would cause a serious performance penalty
- Glider pilots don't generally travel in the same kind of straight lines that us powered guys travel in
- Given those two points, it would be very hard for a controller to maintain an accurate idea of the position of individual gliders, even if the pilots were talkign to the controllers
- Controllers are already aware of the general position of gliders, because the fields where gliding takes place will inform nearby controllers of their activities, especially LARS controllers
Therefore, I don't think there's any practical way that we can get an improvement in the current situation. So, keep your eyes open, keep clear of gliding fields, and keep clear of anywhere that a controller tells you there's gliding!
FFF
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Would be nice to hear from a glider pilot on the subject, but my thoughts are:
- We certainly can't expect glider pilots to carry transponders - the weight would cause a serious performance penalty
- Glider pilots don't generally travel in the same kind of straight lines that us powered guys travel in
- Given those two points, it would be very hard for a controller to maintain an accurate idea of the position of individual gliders, even if the pilots were talkign to the controllers
- Controllers are already aware of the general position of gliders, because the fields where gliding takes place will inform nearby controllers of their activities, especially LARS controllers
Therefore, I don't think there's any practical way that we can get an improvement in the current situation. So, keep your eyes open, keep clear of gliding fields, and keep clear of anywhere that a controller tells you there's gliding!
FFF
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GLIDER RT
FFF,
Thanks for your input... i hold bot licenses and agree that when flying gliders in genral, this is not usually done in a straight line or track but when flying cross country, gliders or often on track maintaining heading and i have on numerous ocassions completed task with an average indicated airspeed of 120kts... bear in mind this is fasters than most c-152 cruise so i would expect Glider pilots to get as much info regarding other A/c that may affect thier flight. I do. thanks for your feedback any way. 
Thanks for your input... i hold bot licenses and agree that when flying gliders in genral, this is not usually done in a straight line or track but when flying cross country, gliders or often on track maintaining heading and i have on numerous ocassions completed task with an average indicated airspeed of 120kts... bear in mind this is fasters than most c-152 cruise so i would expect Glider pilots to get as much info regarding other A/c that may affect thier flight. I do. thanks for your feedback any way.
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Is there a glider to glider frequency which us fixed wing pilots should tune into (and maybe even broadcast our presence) when flying through an area of intense gliding activity?
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...in the States the glider frequency is 123.3 or 123.5 when .3 gets too busy.
I see lots of traffic close up here in the NE States, but I doubt they ever see me. Carrying transponders is getting much more popular.
I see lots of traffic close up here in the NE States, but I doubt they ever see me. Carrying transponders is getting much more popular.
When I'm gliding cross-country and I'm close to an ATZ, I'll often tune in to the freq as it obviously helps to build up a picture of what is going on in the local area - particularly if it's midweek and I'm near a military airfield with a VHF freq.
However, unless I'm contemplating landing at the said airfield I never transmit to advertise my presence. This is because over the years I have become completely disenchanted with the lack of understanding of ATC units concerning gliding. Being asked to maintain an altitude is ridiculous enough, but years ago I was once asked to climb! (I asked for a radar vector to the nearest decent thermal!). Beside which, the less time I'm fiddling with avionics, whether it is GPS or radio, the less time I am looking out!
Most of the time, and especially if I'm getting low, I have the radio turned down or off. The R/T discipline on the UK gliding freqs is appalling and one of the reasons I love my gliding is the occasional peace and quiet away from the rest of the family is part of the attraction.
Hope this view helps put glider pilots' use of radio into perspective.
However, unless I'm contemplating landing at the said airfield I never transmit to advertise my presence. This is because over the years I have become completely disenchanted with the lack of understanding of ATC units concerning gliding. Being asked to maintain an altitude is ridiculous enough, but years ago I was once asked to climb! (I asked for a radar vector to the nearest decent thermal!). Beside which, the less time I'm fiddling with avionics, whether it is GPS or radio, the less time I am looking out!
Most of the time, and especially if I'm getting low, I have the radio turned down or off. The R/T discipline on the UK gliding freqs is appalling and one of the reasons I love my gliding is the occasional peace and quiet away from the rest of the family is part of the attraction.
Hope this view helps put glider pilots' use of radio into perspective.
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I had a lengthy discussion about this subject yesterday with the Captain of a large executive jet who encountered at least 5 gliders at 2000' on a five mile final to my instrument runway last Friday. As a former glider pilot, familiar with the local area, he had briefed to expect possible gliding activity during his descent.
Whilst we (ATC) had a copy of the AUS paperwork advising us of a competition with up to 55 gliders taking part from an airfield about 20 miles away, no specific details of the routings or times had been passed to us. Subsequently, we were not aware of any activity when the jet made his approach. The area concerned is an ideal gliding site (rapidly rising escarpment), outside controlled airspace and the weather on Friday was almost perfect for gliding.
Nevertheless, we came to the following conclusions.
Planning a cross country or competition route through the final approach track of an instrument approach procedure at a busy airport (80 000+ movements per year) is questionable to say the least.
Not advising that airport in advance (ie immediately prior to launch) compounds the problem
Finding yourself in that position as a radio equipped glider pilot, it is poor airmanship to not to establish communications with the ATC unit concerned.
From the ATC point of view, we're not going to ask you to climb, descend or get out of the way....we can't, it's Class G airspace and you're flying VFR!...but a simple call telling us how many of you there are, the direction you're tracking and level bands you're likely to be in goes a long way in enabling us to offer this information to other aircraft in the area, thereby improving flight safety for EVERYONE.
Had the jet known about the volume of activity, he may have elected to make an approach to another runway and visually manoeuvre for landing. His lookout would certainly have been sharper and he may have even used a slower approach speed.
The attitude adopted by SOME members of the gliding fraternity such as "It's the FIR, I'll do what I like" and "I'm too busy to call on the radio" does little to enhance flight safety or the reputation of General Aviation publicly.
It's the sky, it's free, it belongs to us all, let's share the responsibility of keeping it safe!
Whilst we (ATC) had a copy of the AUS paperwork advising us of a competition with up to 55 gliders taking part from an airfield about 20 miles away, no specific details of the routings or times had been passed to us. Subsequently, we were not aware of any activity when the jet made his approach. The area concerned is an ideal gliding site (rapidly rising escarpment), outside controlled airspace and the weather on Friday was almost perfect for gliding.
Nevertheless, we came to the following conclusions.
Planning a cross country or competition route through the final approach track of an instrument approach procedure at a busy airport (80 000+ movements per year) is questionable to say the least.
Not advising that airport in advance (ie immediately prior to launch) compounds the problem
Finding yourself in that position as a radio equipped glider pilot, it is poor airmanship to not to establish communications with the ATC unit concerned.
From the ATC point of view, we're not going to ask you to climb, descend or get out of the way....we can't, it's Class G airspace and you're flying VFR!...but a simple call telling us how many of you there are, the direction you're tracking and level bands you're likely to be in goes a long way in enabling us to offer this information to other aircraft in the area, thereby improving flight safety for EVERYONE.
Had the jet known about the volume of activity, he may have elected to make an approach to another runway and visually manoeuvre for landing. His lookout would certainly have been sharper and he may have even used a slower approach speed.
The attitude adopted by SOME members of the gliding fraternity such as "It's the FIR, I'll do what I like" and "I'm too busy to call on the radio" does little to enhance flight safety or the reputation of General Aviation publicly.
It's the sky, it's free, it belongs to us all, let's share the responsibility of keeping it safe!
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Folks,
Remember that in the UK maybe 90% of gliders have only a basic radio with the following frequencies -
130.1 MHz - Air to air and air to ground
130.4 MHz - Air to air - for cloud flying
129.75 MHz (?) - Ground movement (?)
and sometimes they'll have VOLMET
Only newer / high specification machines or motorgliders will have the full "light aircraft kit".
Most gliders will be listening out on 130.1 MHz. (Although some people have it turned up louder than others - enjoying the silence perhaps !).
So you won't hear them anywhere else.
Gliders so equipped should be avoiding controlled airspace where other frequencies would be needed.
D 129
Remember that in the UK maybe 90% of gliders have only a basic radio with the following frequencies -
130.1 MHz - Air to air and air to ground
130.4 MHz - Air to air - for cloud flying
129.75 MHz (?) - Ground movement (?)
and sometimes they'll have VOLMET
Only newer / high specification machines or motorgliders will have the full "light aircraft kit".
Most gliders will be listening out on 130.1 MHz. (Although some people have it turned up louder than others - enjoying the silence perhaps !).
So you won't hear them anywhere else.
Gliders so equipped should be avoiding controlled airspace where other frequencies would be needed.
D 129
I'm the last person to say that radio should be mandatory for X-country flying in anything, but I confess to a whimsical desire that glider pilots would occasionally make circuit calls, particularly when joining non glider airfields.
G
G
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Agree with earlier post about using airfields as turning points for competetions etc, having to pick your way through gliders on final approach is an unnecessary danger, especially as most are so invisible unless they catach the sun. It is crass to say that Glider pilots are too busy to do radio because they can be travelling at 120kt. Big deal, what about single pilot IFR, they manage to find time to talk.
Perhaps he best answer is to ban gliding?
Perhaps he best answer is to ban gliding?
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GLIDER RT
LUDWIG,
My reference to 120kts is just to make a point that some gliders actually travel fast that some single engined aircraft. I also hold a JAR PPL(A) and fly from both sides of the coin. I don't think any pilot should ever be to busy to COMMUNICATE..........
My reference to 120kts is just to make a point that some gliders actually travel fast that some single engined aircraft. I also hold a JAR PPL(A) and fly from both sides of the coin. I don't think any pilot should ever be to busy to COMMUNICATE..........
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Gliders are far from invisible seen hundreds of them its poor lookout that can lead to you not seeing them. If the glider is not operating in an atz then it has every right to be there and the see and avoid principal works just fine. Can't imagine you ever to operate through loads of gliders on final approach unless your lost or operating from an airfield that as recently gone commercial near an already long established gliding site. Having flown both power and glider still find sticking my head out the cockpit works best after all been talking to atc units who didn't tell me about fast moving military traffic, privately operated ex-mil hardware, light aeroplanes, and dare i say it gliders. 
LOOKOUT
LOOKOUT
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I work (as an atco at a busy commercial airport) near a very busy gliding site (in East Anglia), we have an excellent working relationship with them, and whilst their r/t procedures probably aren't the best in the world (due to lack of practise etc), their airmanship knocks the spots off the majority of PPLs who operate from the 25 or so airfields of varying sizes in the vicinity.
Even with strong upper winds, they make a concious effort to avoid the instrument approach lanes, which is pretty good of them considering the traffic levels and types of large jets which we handle, and that we are in the open FIR and only have an ATZ.
Obviously, the vast majority of gliders don't carry transponders, but still paint a strong primary trace on the radar, so we can take avoiding action if they're not seen.
My only other comment would be, if you have a radio, use it and let us know you're there, listening out and monitering the frequency without talking is as much use to atc as a chocolate fireguard.
Even with strong upper winds, they make a concious effort to avoid the instrument approach lanes, which is pretty good of them considering the traffic levels and types of large jets which we handle, and that we are in the open FIR and only have an ATZ.
Obviously, the vast majority of gliders don't carry transponders, but still paint a strong primary trace on the radar, so we can take avoiding action if they're not seen.
My only other comment would be, if you have a radio, use it and let us know you're there, listening out and monitering the frequency without talking is as much use to atc as a chocolate fireguard.
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Yeah,
I impressed by Ludwig's well-reasoned response and his idea to ban gliding - what's he going to do when the engine quits?
I suppose he could just spin into the ground immediately after engine failure - then he wouldn't have to glide and violate the ban.
As I said in an earlier post, transponders for gliders (low-powered requirements) are becoming more affordable and moreavailable and more and more gliders are installing them - this will help; as will audio varios to help the glider guys keep their eyes out the window - closure rate is a factor when you're meesing around in an airway!
I impressed by Ludwig's well-reasoned response and his idea to ban gliding - what's he going to do when the engine quits?
I suppose he could just spin into the ground immediately after engine failure - then he wouldn't have to glide and violate the ban.
As I said in an earlier post, transponders for gliders (low-powered requirements) are becoming more affordable and moreavailable and more and more gliders are installing them - this will help; as will audio varios to help the glider guys keep their eyes out the window - closure rate is a factor when you're meesing around in an airway!
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GLIDER RT
NIKNAK,
in response to your post, i agree that most glider pilots are usaully more postion concious than most powered pilot in open FIR but i think most are actually unsure if they are allowed to use and transmit radio messages without an FRTO license. As far as i know, gliders pilots may transmit on VHF without an FRTO. (Someone please confirm if i'm correct or not). I thinks another point raised is that most gliders lack comms equipment so for this reson, i purchased a handheld navcomm tranceiver so that im always equipped with a radio. I also use my volmet to listen to local ATIS transmision and Volmet ect. Thanks for you very sensible post anyway...
in response to your post, i agree that most glider pilots are usaully more postion concious than most powered pilot in open FIR but i think most are actually unsure if they are allowed to use and transmit radio messages without an FRTO license. As far as i know, gliders pilots may transmit on VHF without an FRTO. (Someone please confirm if i'm correct or not). I thinks another point raised is that most gliders lack comms equipment so for this reson, i purchased a handheld navcomm tranceiver so that im always equipped with a radio. I also use my volmet to listen to local ATIS transmision and Volmet ect. Thanks for you very sensible post anyway...
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GLIDER RT
Tugpilotsmiffy,
Thanks for the info. i thought glider pilots are allowed to also speak to london info and any nearby aerodrome for traffic information. I certainly know on or two pilots who do do this but dont hold frto licenses. Are they breaking the law?
Thanks for the info. i thought glider pilots are allowed to also speak to london info and any nearby aerodrome for traffic information. I certainly know on or two pilots who do do this but dont hold frto licenses. Are they breaking the law?