Can you help me read this Aerodrome guide please?
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MrAverage, thanks. Those strike me as wise words.
hegemon88, thanks for the useful insight and answering the question.
FZRA, thanks, I'll bear all of that in mind.
I will have only been flight simming for about two or three months by the time I have my first lesson this year. If the net benefit of me practicing on the flight sim is negative, at least I won't have been doing it too long. As I said before, I'm hoping the net benefit will be positive.
hegemon88, thanks for the useful insight and answering the question.
FZRA, thanks, I'll bear all of that in mind.
I will have only been flight simming for about two or three months by the time I have my first lesson this year. If the net benefit of me practicing on the flight sim is negative, at least I won't have been doing it too long. As I said before, I'm hoping the net benefit will be positive.
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I always worry about the 'you should be at 600ft over those power lines, then select flap' type instructors.
It's one thing knowing the routes in and out of an airfield like Denham using ground features. But the circuit should be judged by the position and appearance of the runway. Otherwise, how are you going to land at an unfamiliar airfield?
It's one thing knowing the routes in and out of an airfield like Denham using ground features. But the circuit should be judged by the position and appearance of the runway. Otherwise, how are you going to land at an unfamiliar airfield?
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I always worry about the 'you should be at 600ft over those power lines, then select flap' type instructors.
I'm just talking about the early days of circuit bashing at the local airfield. I also believe it was more to do with noise abatement than anything else (e.g. if you overshoot the line joining those two lakes, you'll overfly that b**tard farmer who always complains").
Once the first solo was done, we of course started landing away at which point I was expected to get a feel for the circuit by normal visual cues such as threshold 45 degrees behind the wing when turning base etc.
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I passed my GST last week and during training I did use xplane, but only for getting the checks into my head at the appropriate stages of flight, IE downwind checks, FREDA checks, etc. Also drills like PFL etc, but purely to get the drills into my head as it did little to help my aircraft handing skills, but it did make learning checklists more enjoyable.
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Let me add a +1 for the simulator as this thread seems to be very "Sims are bad" orientated. I do wonder if people here have actually flown with a decent simulator setup (aircraft simulated (with exact panel and characteristics of real aircraft) VFR Scenery, airfield scenery, yoke pedals and trackir). If you have PMDG 747 and purely do ILS approaches into LHR with a 2D Panel then of course the sim wont help. But if you have the right sim set up for VFR work with a 3D panel and he ability to look outside of the cockpit in the way you do in a real aircraft then I found it invaluable.
I have the aircraft I fly replicated in FSX, VFR scenery, so I can navigate looking out of the window, airfield scenery so I have the familiarisation of home and local airfields, trackir so I can look around in a 3D cockpit and outside views without having my head stuck in the cockpit, an ipad with the main instruments to cross reference and skydemon connected (then map in hand
).
For me the sim helped through my training (and the insturctor commented on my second lesson positively) - but I really think you need to make your own judgement. Imagine if they hadn't used sims in things like F1 - it wouldnt be the sport we have today, but you do need to spend some $ on setup for it to be any use with VFR.
Heres a few reasons why I + Sims
- with trackir you dont have your head in the cockpit you are using the external clues as you would for real. You dont get sensations such as ground rush on landing but you do get the sensation of flying and have the ability to reference land marks and look around as you would in the real AC, with the ability to pause and look at systems/radios/effects in the air or in the ground.
- practising the pre-landing checks downwind etc and being able to pause really helped to get them nailed.
- practising failures in the Sim is far easier than for real - set up fsx to fail your vacuum pump within 5 mins of take of brings home what really would happen in real life. Then practising the pfls.
- practising the route (and yes looking out the window) with map in one hand and using fsx scenery to identify features and practice the cross country/approach to the airfields, circuits etc the day before the actual flight (and I still do this)
- practising the overhead join and pausing it to review where you are and to look at the aircraft from different positions.
- learning to use the functions of the GPS and pausing to read the manual.
- learning airfield runway/taxi layouts (especially large ones before you get there)
- using the approach plate and flying it in the Sim to understand before doing it for real.
For me the Sim helped both for VFR and IMC (and still does) but everyone unto their own. I think try it - see if it helps or hinders - if it helps keep using, if you find yourself going backwards during your training then lay off the Sim. But for me it definitely helped (and still does).
I have the aircraft I fly replicated in FSX, VFR scenery, so I can navigate looking out of the window, airfield scenery so I have the familiarisation of home and local airfields, trackir so I can look around in a 3D cockpit and outside views without having my head stuck in the cockpit, an ipad with the main instruments to cross reference and skydemon connected (then map in hand
).For me the sim helped through my training (and the insturctor commented on my second lesson positively) - but I really think you need to make your own judgement. Imagine if they hadn't used sims in things like F1 - it wouldnt be the sport we have today, but you do need to spend some $ on setup for it to be any use with VFR.
Heres a few reasons why I + Sims
- with trackir you dont have your head in the cockpit you are using the external clues as you would for real. You dont get sensations such as ground rush on landing but you do get the sensation of flying and have the ability to reference land marks and look around as you would in the real AC, with the ability to pause and look at systems/radios/effects in the air or in the ground.
- practising the pre-landing checks downwind etc and being able to pause really helped to get them nailed.
- practising failures in the Sim is far easier than for real - set up fsx to fail your vacuum pump within 5 mins of take of brings home what really would happen in real life. Then practising the pfls.
- practising the route (and yes looking out the window) with map in one hand and using fsx scenery to identify features and practice the cross country/approach to the airfields, circuits etc the day before the actual flight (and I still do this)
- practising the overhead join and pausing it to review where you are and to look at the aircraft from different positions.
- learning to use the functions of the GPS and pausing to read the manual.
- learning airfield runway/taxi layouts (especially large ones before you get there)
- using the approach plate and flying it in the Sim to understand before doing it for real.
For me the Sim helped both for VFR and IMC (and still does) but everyone unto their own. I think try it - see if it helps or hinders - if it helps keep using, if you find yourself going backwards during your training then lay off the Sim. But for me it definitely helped (and still does).
I pulled off 3 greasers on the trot on Friday. It lead to a big discussion about landing.
Something which you find nigh on impossible at first, but when you start to "feel" the sink, and use your peripheral vision, and understand how long you can actually hold off, and how slowly to pull that throttle, it starts to fit together.
I'm glad I didn't try to learn with a sim.
Out of interest, (this is not a snotty question, it's a genuine point)
OP, do you think you could have learnt to drive using a computer sim ?
Driving is child's play compared. There are no lay-bys in the sky, and you can't just pause an aircraft in real life. In real life you can pause your car by letting go of everything and pressing the brake. No one dies if you do that in car.
Something which you find nigh on impossible at first, but when you start to "feel" the sink, and use your peripheral vision, and understand how long you can actually hold off, and how slowly to pull that throttle, it starts to fit together.
I'm glad I didn't try to learn with a sim.
Out of interest, (this is not a snotty question, it's a genuine point)
OP, do you think you could have learnt to drive using a computer sim ?
Driving is child's play compared. There are no lay-bys in the sky, and you can't just pause an aircraft in real life. In real life you can pause your car by letting go of everything and pressing the brake. No one dies if you do that in car.
On the other hand, let go of the controls in most conditions for half a minute, and nobody dies in an aeroplane. I'd hate to do that on a motorway!
(Flippant point I know, just emphasising that they're quite different).
G
(Flippant point I know, just emphasising that they're quite different).
G
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Now, I've never got into an inadvertent spiral dive in VMC, and I have difficulty imaging how one can. (IMC's a different matter, where I take the possibility of accidentally falling out of the sky sideways very seriously indeed.)
So - genuine question this - what are the scenarios in which you might accidentally end up in a spiral dive under VMC? - there must be some, or there wouldn't be the emphasis on recovering from it in PPL training.
Depends upon the stability characteristics of the aeroplane - but yes, that's common to quite a lot of GA types. Some won't do that however.
As an occasional instructor I've seen inadvertent spiral dive entries quite a few times - two entry mechanisms. (And it's worth mentioning that I'm a CRI, so this is all in people who already hold PPLs).
(1) Steep turns, failing to keep back stick pressure, or keep the ball in the middle.
(2) Failure to properly co-ordinate a turn, especially at low level where there's a changing visual horizon.
I've had a post-PPL student put an aircraft into a spiral dive whilst initiating a descending turn onto deadside during an overhead join. That was exciting!
Loss of horizon in poor visibility, but legal VMC, is another possibility.
G
As an occasional instructor I've seen inadvertent spiral dive entries quite a few times - two entry mechanisms. (And it's worth mentioning that I'm a CRI, so this is all in people who already hold PPLs).
(1) Steep turns, failing to keep back stick pressure, or keep the ball in the middle.
(2) Failure to properly co-ordinate a turn, especially at low level where there's a changing visual horizon.
I've had a post-PPL student put an aircraft into a spiral dive whilst initiating a descending turn onto deadside during an overhead join. That was exciting!
Loss of horizon in poor visibility, but legal VMC, is another possibility.
G
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Ta.
Ah, I don't seem to suffer from that one. (So far.) I have in the past puzzled instructors by my ability to manage perfectly happily without anything much at all in the way of a visible horizon, to an extent which is quite out of keeping with my overall flying abilities
Such as, one day there was no horizon and hence all the other lessons were cancelled, but my own lesson went ahead because "unlike the others you don't seem to need a horizon".
Such as, one day there was no horizon and hence all the other lessons were cancelled, but my own lesson went ahead because "unlike the others you don't seem to need a horizon".
The "point" was that in a car, when it all gets too much you can just "stop driving" and take a break. On a motorway you "can" pull onto the hard shoulder and stop.
You cannot pull over at 3000' and take a break because you are fatigued or mentally overloaded.
Does the OP think you could learn to drive in a home built sim that doesn't have pedals?
I suppose if it works for you, fine, however, personally I found one of the things I needed to learn was that you cannot pause or reset or stop for a break when it's getting a bit much on final. That's a very important skill.
You cannot pull over at 3000' and take a break because you are fatigued or mentally overloaded.
Does the OP think you could learn to drive in a home built sim that doesn't have pedals?
I suppose if it works for you, fine, however, personally I found one of the things I needed to learn was that you cannot pause or reset or stop for a break when it's getting a bit much on final. That's a very important skill.
what are the scenarios in which you might accidentally end up in a spiral dive under VMC?
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Thanks TurningFinals and Rabbs. I intend to use sims for similar procedure and familiarisation based learning.
Rabbs, I have a very similar setup to you: pedals, force feedback stick (good for trim), trackir, VFR and airfield scenery, ipad with maps etc.
kghjfg, I definitely think my setup would have been helpful in learning to drive, in combination with actual lessons. This is what I'm attempting to use my sim for for flying (assisting actual lessons). In particular, it would have been helpful for practicing procedures (e.g. reverse park with trackir for checking around me), and for familiarising myself with the local roads.
Rabbs, I have a very similar setup to you: pedals, force feedback stick (good for trim), trackir, VFR and airfield scenery, ipad with maps etc.
kghjfg, I definitely think my setup would have been helpful in learning to drive, in combination with actual lessons. This is what I'm attempting to use my sim for for flying (assisting actual lessons). In particular, it would have been helpful for practicing procedures (e.g. reverse park with trackir for checking around me), and for familiarising myself with the local roads.
Gerard, you're not by any chance a teacher are you ?
I only ask because a student who is/was a teacher was posting on a forum recently explaining that he could learn to fly from books. I mean, how hard can it be?!
Seriously though, I presume you have rudder pedals in your setup then.
What will be really really useful to students who come after you would be if you could update this thread with what you didn't know you didn't know (even though people tried to explain) when you start learning, and exactly what a sim could help with.
When you learn, for the first 5 lessons you think it's easy because you don't even notice your mistakes. Then you get better and you have a massive slump when you notice your mistakes and think you can't do anything right. You've improved, but you see it as the opposite.
All the time you have this FI chap sitting next to you,who knows what to let go and what not.
Pushing a yoke forward any time AFTER a flare is a massive no-no and will get you hurt in short order, as will a slow final turn, taking your hand off the throttle in climb out isn't critical, till one day you swap planes and you're in the plane where it vibrates shut.
Your FI might let that one go, but he'll go ape if you start your turn onto final below 65 knots.
And seriously, and this is my final point, you'll have no idea at any time what you did wrong or are doing wrong. You need an FI to debrief your flights. By trial and error you might learn to fly a sim, you won't learn to fly a plane. There will be no one there to debrief you. If you think you can debrief yourself, then you are beyond hope, and I suppose it's best not to reply any more.
I only ask because a student who is/was a teacher was posting on a forum recently explaining that he could learn to fly from books. I mean, how hard can it be?!
Seriously though, I presume you have rudder pedals in your setup then.
What will be really really useful to students who come after you would be if you could update this thread with what you didn't know you didn't know (even though people tried to explain) when you start learning, and exactly what a sim could help with.
When you learn, for the first 5 lessons you think it's easy because you don't even notice your mistakes. Then you get better and you have a massive slump when you notice your mistakes and think you can't do anything right. You've improved, but you see it as the opposite.
All the time you have this FI chap sitting next to you,who knows what to let go and what not.
Pushing a yoke forward any time AFTER a flare is a massive no-no and will get you hurt in short order, as will a slow final turn, taking your hand off the throttle in climb out isn't critical, till one day you swap planes and you're in the plane where it vibrates shut.
Your FI might let that one go, but he'll go ape if you start your turn onto final below 65 knots.
And seriously, and this is my final point, you'll have no idea at any time what you did wrong or are doing wrong. You need an FI to debrief your flights. By trial and error you might learn to fly a sim, you won't learn to fly a plane. There will be no one there to debrief you. If you think you can debrief yourself, then you are beyond hope, and I suppose it's best not to reply any more.
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Genghis, I completely agree, I have no expertise on learning to fly at all, the instructors are the experts. As I have said before, I am trying to gain certain benefits from simming (e.g. procedural, familiarisation), knowing that I will be inviting some disbenefits e.g. not having an expert to tell me bits I'm doing wrong.
kghjfg, I am not a teacher. I do have rudder pedals. I will try to update this thread at some point after my lessons have started. I fully expect to be annoyed and surprised by some of the negatives the flight sim has provided. I hope that the net position will still be a benefit though.
I don't think I can debrief myself at all. I think a lot of people on this thread have assumed that I think I can fully train myself to fly with a flight sim alone. I don't. I can't fly, I can't instruct. I said in one of my first posts 'I will not be telling my instructor that I have 'learned to fly' on a sim so he can just hand me the keys.'. I'm trying to use a flight sim to help me, that is all. Some in this thread say it has helped them. I'm saying it based on some evidence, even though there is no black and white right or wrong. I am willing to learn and I know that I know very little.
kghjfg, I am not a teacher. I do have rudder pedals. I will try to update this thread at some point after my lessons have started. I fully expect to be annoyed and surprised by some of the negatives the flight sim has provided. I hope that the net position will still be a benefit though.
I don't think I can debrief myself at all. I think a lot of people on this thread have assumed that I think I can fully train myself to fly with a flight sim alone. I don't. I can't fly, I can't instruct. I said in one of my first posts 'I will not be telling my instructor that I have 'learned to fly' on a sim so he can just hand me the keys.'. I'm trying to use a flight sim to help me, that is all. Some in this thread say it has helped them. I'm saying it based on some evidence, even though there is no black and white right or wrong. I am willing to learn and I know that I know very little.
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My succinct take on this is that you can use a flight sim to learn about flying, but you can't use a flight sim to learn to fly.
It's a very subtle difference that I didn't grasp until doing procedure flying like navigation or flight by sole reference to instruments.
IMO the only thing a flight simulator does for a pre-solo pilot is reduce the effort needed in ground school a bit, because you already know how some things work. Flight instruments is an obvious one, already raised.
It's a very subtle difference that I didn't grasp until doing procedure flying like navigation or flight by sole reference to instruments.
IMO the only thing a flight simulator does for a pre-solo pilot is reduce the effort needed in ground school a bit, because you already know how some things work. Flight instruments is an obvious one, already raised.