How high do you fly?
In a swept wing airliner, one would normally choose a cruise level which provides sufficient margin between high and low speed buffet boundaries. I'm not sure what the current rule is, but 1.35+10 was the normal minimum IAS for the type I flew, although earlier operation allowed 1.2+10 if no turbulence was forecast.
The difficulties of precise hand flying at high level in aircraft with considerable inertia should not be underestimated; one of the early training sorties on the type on which I instructed included a simple 180° level turn at 30° AoB at FL350, so that students (particularly ex-fighter pilots who thought that autopilots were unnecessary) appreciated the problems.
I once had to fly a Vulcan back across the pond at M0.84/FL410 without a serviceable autopilot and it wasn't much fun - we did 20 minutes each at the helm for about 5 hours!
Flying spamcans in Southern UK, my preferred VFR cruising level was 1500' on the nearest aerodrome QNH - I liked the view. Engine failure in an IFR-approved, properly maintained SEP aeroplane was about as likely as being hit by an asteroid, but the risk could generally be mitigated by avoiding flight over hostile terrain or congested areas.
The difficulties of precise hand flying at high level in aircraft with considerable inertia should not be underestimated; one of the early training sorties on the type on which I instructed included a simple 180° level turn at 30° AoB at FL350, so that students (particularly ex-fighter pilots who thought that autopilots were unnecessary) appreciated the problems.
I once had to fly a Vulcan back across the pond at M0.84/FL410 without a serviceable autopilot and it wasn't much fun - we did 20 minutes each at the helm for about 5 hours!
Flying spamcans in Southern UK, my preferred VFR cruising level was 1500' on the nearest aerodrome QNH - I liked the view. Engine failure in an IFR-approved, properly maintained SEP aeroplane was about as likely as being hit by an asteroid, but the risk could generally be mitigated by avoiding flight over hostile terrain or congested areas.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You got a PA28 to FL380
WOW
WOW
amazing what you can do with a big ego and a lot of imagination 
It was even a pressurised PA28 quite rare and a pretty secret model released by Piper not known by many! The 4 bars worn give you the extra performance needed over standard Pace
Last edited by Pace; 23rd Feb 2016 at 11:46.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I took a mate in the sim who with the benefit of 500 hours constantly told me how easy my job is. He came very unstuck at FL410 M.86 just doing straight and level. A turn had me in hysterical laughter. He was very surprised at a demo of the difference between high speed stall and mach buffet, and how close they can be and how alike they feel.
But a Vulcan at m.84 and FL410, that earns large respect!
SND
But a Vulcan at m.84 and FL410, that earns large respect!
SND
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anybody here ever flown an Auster? I have heard people say compared to a Supercub it is like flying a shed.
But a glider pilot a number of years ago - who flew under the Firth bridge and nearly had his wings clipped only the cops got his reg muddled up -- was one of the first British pilots to understand and explore the wave. He usually took his dog with him...
The pair of them were flying back home down South from a week of wave soaring. Scottish ATC asked him to confirm his flight level report....they found it hard to believe anyone could fly an Auster at FL 180.....
He told them he had to stay that low because the dog wouldn't tolerate wearing an oxygen mask....
But a glider pilot a number of years ago - who flew under the Firth bridge and nearly had his wings clipped only the cops got his reg muddled up -- was one of the first British pilots to understand and explore the wave. He usually took his dog with him...
The pair of them were flying back home down South from a week of wave soaring. Scottish ATC asked him to confirm his flight level report....they found it hard to believe anyone could fly an Auster at FL 180.....
He told them he had to stay that low because the dog wouldn't tolerate wearing an oxygen mask....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mary
I posted this before and I think you replied back then but Flying the PA28 to Nice There were warnings of severe turbulence between FL 200 AND 300. I warned the PAX and reduced the speed in the decent to Nice.
When we landed a felt a complete fool as the air all the way down was a smooth as silk.
We dropped the PAX and positioned the PA28 back to the UK! On the more northerly SID out of Nice with just myself and the FO passing FL200 in the climb all hell let loose with cupboards flying open and the contents hurled from one end to the other ( yes this PA28 had a special interior fit with cupboards and catering facilities)
we had 45 degree wing drops and asked for an immediate climb to over FL300 as the PA28 was almost uncontrollable
Normally between FL200 and 300 the climb rate was around 1000 fpm but in this air we had a solid 2 to 3000 fpm all the way up to over FL300 where the air became smooth again
Mountain wave can be amazing
Pace
I posted this before and I think you replied back then but Flying the PA28 to Nice There were warnings of severe turbulence between FL 200 AND 300. I warned the PAX and reduced the speed in the decent to Nice.
When we landed a felt a complete fool as the air all the way down was a smooth as silk.
We dropped the PAX and positioned the PA28 back to the UK! On the more northerly SID out of Nice with just myself and the FO passing FL200 in the climb all hell let loose with cupboards flying open and the contents hurled from one end to the other ( yes this PA28 had a special interior fit with cupboards and catering facilities)
we had 45 degree wing drops and asked for an immediate climb to over FL300 as the PA28 was almost uncontrollable
Normally between FL200 and 300 the climb rate was around 1000 fpm but in this air we had a solid 2 to 3000 fpm all the way up to over FL300 where the air became smooth again
Mountain wave can be amazing
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 23rd Feb 2016 at 15:09.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UTUXA
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets go up to 10,000 feet said the instructor trying to find a decent horizon to teach me something. So we did eventually.This PA28 was one you are all familiar with by the way.It was a struggle but Winter Hill was well below us.
Mistake.I had gone for the lesson from work and was wearing a suit.I used a fountain pen a lot in those days.
Fortunately the stain only affected the lining.
Mistake.I had gone for the lesson from work and was wearing a suit.I used a fountain pen a lot in those days.
Fortunately the stain only affected the lining.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia
There was an article in Pilot years ago by someone who took a Turbulent to 20,000' just to see if it could be done. I'd like to re-read that if possible.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you,Delta V, for introducing us to Bob Grimstead's writeup of his amazing flight. He surely was pushing his boundaries, and was lucky to survive the apoxia. It is the most pleasant way of all to commit suicide, they say, because without pain, very quickly the mind relaxes, no worries, and you are gone!
Bob's flight took a lot of preparation, and luck, amazing that an engine could take him so high. Respect to those who made that excellent machine!
My own flying in wave at Deeside Gliding Club was routine, really. The hairy bit is following the tow plane through the lee rotor, that sure would rattle the dishes in the kitchen. Takes two hands tightly on the stick to maintain control. Once through the rotor and established beside a nice fat lenticular cloud, you stay in the same spot over the ground steadily rising higher and higher. To my surprise I noticed the altimeter actually has three hands! never saw that before! Aiming for diamond height, I flew to 20,300 feet, and could see three sides of Scotland. A perfect day.
Although it was cold, beating back and forth the sun shone in one side and warmed up the glider. I had a baby blanket with me that I could easily pull over my body to keep warm.
Every now and then the instructor on the ground would call on the radio to make sure I wasn't going doolally, which was reassuring. But so much easier and safer to climb to great heights in a glider in mountain wave. And quieter. It's not something I need to do again, however. It is much more comfortable flying at sensible levels. Say between 3,000 and 7,000 feet along a nice cloud street. Today the cumulus looked amazing.
Bob's flight took a lot of preparation, and luck, amazing that an engine could take him so high. Respect to those who made that excellent machine!
My own flying in wave at Deeside Gliding Club was routine, really. The hairy bit is following the tow plane through the lee rotor, that sure would rattle the dishes in the kitchen. Takes two hands tightly on the stick to maintain control. Once through the rotor and established beside a nice fat lenticular cloud, you stay in the same spot over the ground steadily rising higher and higher. To my surprise I noticed the altimeter actually has three hands! never saw that before! Aiming for diamond height, I flew to 20,300 feet, and could see three sides of Scotland. A perfect day.
Although it was cold, beating back and forth the sun shone in one side and warmed up the glider. I had a baby blanket with me that I could easily pull over my body to keep warm.
Every now and then the instructor on the ground would call on the radio to make sure I wasn't going doolally, which was reassuring. But so much easier and safer to climb to great heights in a glider in mountain wave. And quieter. It's not something I need to do again, however. It is much more comfortable flying at sensible levels. Say between 3,000 and 7,000 feet along a nice cloud street. Today the cumulus looked amazing.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Highest I've ever been is 8,000 and that was only to get over some weather. I've been higher in a glider. My default height is 3,000 and a bit. The bit is because everyone else tends to fly with the big hand at 12 o clock or 6 o clock so I reckon, probably wrongly, that I'm giving myself a bit of risk reduction.
In the summer I don't like getting chucked around in the mid afternoon boomers so I tend to head off to six or seven thousand for some quiet air and good vis.
In the summer I don't like getting chucked around in the mid afternoon boomers so I tend to head off to six or seven thousand for some quiet air and good vis.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DeltaV;
Thanks for that, I didn't realise it was Bob, I suppose I should have known, there can't be many people daft enough to try that, except possibly Bob.
SND
Thanks for that, I didn't realise it was Bob, I suppose I should have known, there can't be many people daft enough to try that, except possibly Bob.
SND
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a brilliant pilot and have to say writer too.
I used to fly a businessman in a Seneca Five ( The easy one to fly which any pilot with half a brain can fly)) regularly to western Ireland from the UK.
Normally we cruised at 10 to 12 K and on occasion, usually weather climbed higher.
The Seneca five had built in oxygen for pilots and PAX with the pickup points for the oxygen masks in the ceiling. So all very easy.
The owner sometimes came in the front with me and sometimes sat alone in the back.
He was a heavy smoker and on this occasion was in the back. The sun was fast disappearing below the horizon as I elected to climb on top of some frontal weather which I suspected held ice.
I turned around and asked him to Don his oxygen mask and put my own on.
We were now level at FL170 and I was met by the smell of cigarette smoke.
Turning around he was happily sitting there with NO oxygen mask smoking a cigarette. He was perfectly lucid and cheerful and refused to Don the mask
One thing that always puzzles me is that climbers can climb and exert themselves without oxygen at 20,000 feet while us pilots sitting still and non smokers are on the verge of passing out at 20,000 feet without oxygen
Pace
I used to fly a businessman in a Seneca Five ( The easy one to fly which any pilot with half a brain can fly)) regularly to western Ireland from the UK.
Normally we cruised at 10 to 12 K and on occasion, usually weather climbed higher.
The Seneca five had built in oxygen for pilots and PAX with the pickup points for the oxygen masks in the ceiling. So all very easy.
The owner sometimes came in the front with me and sometimes sat alone in the back.
He was a heavy smoker and on this occasion was in the back. The sun was fast disappearing below the horizon as I elected to climb on top of some frontal weather which I suspected held ice.
I turned around and asked him to Don his oxygen mask and put my own on.
We were now level at FL170 and I was met by the smell of cigarette smoke.
Turning around he was happily sitting there with NO oxygen mask smoking a cigarette. He was perfectly lucid and cheerful and refused to Don the mask
One thing that always puzzles me is that climbers can climb and exert themselves without oxygen at 20,000 feet while us pilots sitting still and non smokers are on the verge of passing out at 20,000 feet without oxygen
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 24th Feb 2016 at 10:02.
Well, the main difference is that they typically acclimatise over a longer period of time. It's not all about increasing Haemoglobin levels, as even a few days help considerably. And Sherpas/Andean populations have genetically adapted to live at altitude so even though there are people who can climb to 20,000 feet this probably isn't something just anyone can do.
A climbing friend of mine got altitude sickness at just 3000 metres - short holiday; drove most of the way up the mountain and walked the rest on day 1.
A climbing friend of mine got altitude sickness at just 3000 metres - short holiday; drove most of the way up the mountain and walked the rest on day 1.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That still doesn't explain the owner of the aircraft smoking in the back with no apparent effects )
Ok roughly 17 K not 20K
It also brings up a disparity between FAA and EASA
FAA it is up to 12500 feet unlimited 12500 to 14000 for 30 minutes 14000 and above all the time on oxygen for pilots! But wait for it PAX don't have to use oxygen till 15000 feet ASL
Pace
Ok roughly 17 K not 20K
It also brings up a disparity between FAA and EASA
FAA it is up to 12500 feet unlimited 12500 to 14000 for 30 minutes 14000 and above all the time on oxygen for pilots! But wait for it PAX don't have to use oxygen till 15000 feet ASL
Pace
A good job your passenger didn't try to smoke with Oxygen!
Smoking, like altitude sickness, is one of those things where people differ a lot in how they cope with it. Occasionally you'll get a 30 year old smoker whose lungs have already started to fall apart, and a 90-something year old who seems impervious.
But no mystery regarding passenger v. pilots - surely. It doesn't matter if passengers are none-too-sharp provided they don't suffer lasting harm. If you're a pilot, you need to stay alert. And given that they need to set the limits such that almost all pilots will stay alert at 12,500 feet there should be no surprise if quite a lot of people can cope with going considerably higher.
Smoking, like altitude sickness, is one of those things where people differ a lot in how they cope with it. Occasionally you'll get a 30 year old smoker whose lungs have already started to fall apart, and a 90-something year old who seems impervious.
But no mystery regarding passenger v. pilots - surely. It doesn't matter if passengers are none-too-sharp provided they don't suffer lasting harm. If you're a pilot, you need to stay alert. And given that they need to set the limits such that almost all pilots will stay alert at 12,500 feet there should be no surprise if quite a lot of people can cope with going considerably higher.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia
...I didn't realise it was Bob, I suppose I should have known, there can't be many people daft enough to try that, except possibly Bob.
SND
SND