Degradation of will to learn how to fly
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Expanding on a thought...
you are a pilot, but you are not at all an experienced pilot. You have demonstrated the minimum skill set to pass the test.
you are a pilot, but you are not at all an experienced pilot. You have demonstrated the minimum skill set to pass the test.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
SSD WROTE:
So it did ring bells but it was better second time around at a good school once you'd been bitten, by your own admission? Not quite the same, is it?
Truth is, all schools DO NOT carry out what they promised and the GA scene has shrunk incredibly since the '70's ie less competition etc. so 'screwing the incumbents' will be more prevalent:
Loyalty costs.
No, not really. Alien to me, that was.
I came to GA with my eyes open. I'd done gliding in the late '70s (a bit - 'till I got pissed off driving tractors and pulling private owner gliders around for a few precious minutes in the air). I'd spent 3 full weekends, 07:00 to 19:00 each day, before I even got into a cockpit! Thanks a bunch, D&L! (It WAS a long time ago!).
So I went to Barton in 1978 for a PPL determined not to be pissed around again. Made that clear, in the crowded clubhouse one wet Sunday afternoon after calling in to Barton, to the chairman of LAC. He promised me they would not piss me about as D&L had done.
I came to GA with my eyes open. I'd done gliding in the late '70s (a bit - 'till I got pissed off driving tractors and pulling private owner gliders around for a few precious minutes in the air). I'd spent 3 full weekends, 07:00 to 19:00 each day, before I even got into a cockpit! Thanks a bunch, D&L! (It WAS a long time ago!).
So I went to Barton in 1978 for a PPL determined not to be pissed around again. Made that clear, in the crowded clubhouse one wet Sunday afternoon after calling in to Barton, to the chairman of LAC. He promised me they would not piss me about as D&L had done.
Truth is, all schools DO NOT carry out what they promised and the GA scene has shrunk incredibly since the '70's ie less competition etc. so 'screwing the incumbents' will be more prevalent:
Loyalty costs.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Pilot Dar
I would also add that taking any risk decision might be ok for ourselves as its to a certain extent our choice. Flying a single at night cross country, flying over water, flying IMC with a cloud base almost to the ground in a single etc.
When we carry PAX especially non aviation minded PAX there is an extra level of responsibility in the fact that we are risking them too.
Maybe not our right to do so?
i can remember getting a shiny new PPL in my 20s and taking a pretty 19 year old up for a flight. The Top Gun image sporting a pair of Raybans and a leather jacket to impress her with my top gun flying abilities which were FAR off from top gun but more green novice and totally inexperienced.
Maybe had I had to carry a big L plate on the back the illusion I was portraying to this girl would have shattered as somehow Ray Bans, leather jackets, top gun Image and L plates don't go
Throughout flying we are taking risks and carrying unknowing PAX we must remember that we are taking risk decisions for those PAX and maybe we don't have a right to do so?
As A fresh PPL we should say to the PAX that we are novice PPLs with little experience and do they still want to come on a flight? At least then they make an informed decision.
Further in our flying we should also make our PAX aware of any elements of extra risk as they have to be part of that decision making? So we should for instance explain the risks of a water crossing as well as the procedures involved in ditching and keep the PAX as involved in any risk decisions as possible and not just take them on the ride of their life, good, bad or indifferent.
I know there is always a balancing act of not alarming PAX with risk decisions which only we should make for them as Sky Gods but maybe in many cases they have a right to be alarmed ?
Pace
I would also add that taking any risk decision might be ok for ourselves as its to a certain extent our choice. Flying a single at night cross country, flying over water, flying IMC with a cloud base almost to the ground in a single etc.
When we carry PAX especially non aviation minded PAX there is an extra level of responsibility in the fact that we are risking them too.
Maybe not our right to do so?
i can remember getting a shiny new PPL in my 20s and taking a pretty 19 year old up for a flight. The Top Gun image sporting a pair of Raybans and a leather jacket to impress her with my top gun flying abilities which were FAR off from top gun but more green novice and totally inexperienced.
Maybe had I had to carry a big L plate on the back the illusion I was portraying to this girl would have shattered as somehow Ray Bans, leather jackets, top gun Image and L plates don't go
Throughout flying we are taking risks and carrying unknowing PAX we must remember that we are taking risk decisions for those PAX and maybe we don't have a right to do so?
As A fresh PPL we should say to the PAX that we are novice PPLs with little experience and do they still want to come on a flight? At least then they make an informed decision.
Further in our flying we should also make our PAX aware of any elements of extra risk as they have to be part of that decision making? So we should for instance explain the risks of a water crossing as well as the procedures involved in ditching and keep the PAX as involved in any risk decisions as possible and not just take them on the ride of their life, good, bad or indifferent.
I know there is always a balancing act of not alarming PAX with risk decisions which only we should make for them as Sky Gods but maybe in many cases they have a right to be alarmed ?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th December 2015 at 10:13.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
Jjoe, not sure where you learnt, certainly sounds like you had a bad experience!
I have taught at a number of schools over the years, good bad and indifferent, even the bad one, run by a real shark, did not "screw the incumbents",though that one did push through one guy who should not really have been allowed near an aircraft, he had the ability but wrong mental attitude, but generally even there the students were dealt with in a professional manner and I would say the schools that do screw students are very much in the minority.
I have taught at a number of schools over the years, good bad and indifferent, even the bad one, run by a real shark, did not "screw the incumbents",though that one did push through one guy who should not really have been allowed near an aircraft, he had the ability but wrong mental attitude, but generally even there the students were dealt with in a professional manner and I would say the schools that do screw students are very much in the minority.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,415
Likes: 2
From: Europe
Hey Pace, you are a PPL, not a professional pilot, and the people who can be persuaded to ride with you are not "PAX", they are your friends.
"PAX" is industry jargon, a hangover derived from telex days when the fewer letters the better when sending reports on AFTN from the handling office, (....aaah, the olden days....) for paying passengers on a commercial flight. I'm sure you know this.
But there's something about your posts which prompts me to point it out!
"PAX" is industry jargon, a hangover derived from telex days when the fewer letters the better when sending reports on AFTN from the handling office, (....aaah, the olden days....) for paying passengers on a commercial flight. I'm sure you know this.
But there's something about your posts which prompts me to point it out!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,658
Likes: 501
From: Canada
Every PPL and CPL student I have recommended for a flight test in 28 years of full and part time instructing has passed their test on the first attempt.
It is the instructors job to make sure that the student has the skills and knowledge to safely fly an airplane.
With respect to the original posts, my thought is it has to be a wind up. The situation described is so far from normal flying instructing general practice that it makes no sense.
In any case, if true the good news is that no student could pass a flight test operating the way this student is, so he will never get licensed
It is the instructors job to make sure that the student has the skills and knowledge to safely fly an airplane.
With respect to the original posts, my thought is it has to be a wind up. The situation described is so far from normal flying instructing general practice that it makes no sense.
In any case, if true the good news is that no student could pass a flight test operating the way this student is, so he will never get licensed
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Capot
I am a professional pilot
Who says they are your friends? You may take a deadly enemy for a flight or may use your aircraft for business and pleasure so may carry employees
PAX is a term commonly used today in the circles I mix in I could use passengers if it sounds better ?
Pace
I am a professional pilot
Who says they are your friends? You may take a deadly enemy for a flight or may use your aircraft for business and pleasure so may carry employees PAX is a term commonly used today in the circles I mix in I could use passengers if it sounds better ?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th December 2015 at 09:55.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,831
Likes: 16
From: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
The OP didn't say how long the student had taken to do 45 hours. A few long breaks, where the log book still has the hours, but the brain has lost the motor skills, and only has uncertain recollection of procedures, would explain it at any school. The use of the electronics in the circuit is strange, but some Instructor might have suggested it as a ground homework aid to learn the circuit - and been misunderstood.
(Not an instructor, but 43 years teaching teenagers gave me a few weird interpretations of what colleagues had said - and of what I had said.)
(Not an instructor, but 43 years teaching teenagers gave me a few weird interpretations of what colleagues had said - and of what I had said.)
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,415
Likes: 2
From: Europe
Pace... I take it all back, with apologies....leaping to conclusions again. It's that word PAX that triggered it; I've disliked it throughout my career, but that's my problem, not yours! It has always seemed to me somehow to dehumanise our customers the passengers, and hints at the contempt for the customers that is sometimes not far below the surface in our industry.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 1
From: Cambridge, England, EU
PAX ... has always seemed to me somehow to dehumanise our customers the passengers
I can't see how "PAX" for "passengers" is any more offensive than "WX" for "weather" or any other technical abbreviation.
Joined: Jun 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 7,177
Likes: 297
From: Nanaimo (CAC8)
PAX is now the almost ubiquitous term in the Far East for any kind of booking, not just transportation. I often see it used in hotel and restaurant reservations.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Capot
No apology needed )) I used PAX seven times and I can see to someone who doesn't like it 7 PAXs must be quite jarring
Passengers has 10 letters to write so 70 letters while PAX has 3 ) or 21 in total saving writing 49 letters ) quite a saving ?
Every industry uses abbreviation don't know what abbreviation could be more friendly ? KIS )
Pace
No apology needed )) I used PAX seven times and I can see to someone who doesn't like it 7 PAXs must be quite jarring
Passengers has 10 letters to write so 70 letters while PAX has 3 ) or 21 in total saving writing 49 letters ) quite a saving ?
Every industry uses abbreviation don't know what abbreviation could be more friendly
? KIS )Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th December 2015 at 10:18.
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 1,378
Likes: 174
From: England
PAX is a term commonly used today . . . Pace
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Pace also originated from Roman times as a measurement of a marching step and then to reflect motion either fast or slow such as a fast pace of life or he paced up and down the room, or a pace car in motor racing.
So agreed PACE means peace but my mantle originated from the corny ACE
p_ace and shortened to pace but happy with the above descriptions too
But going way off topic and all because of PAX
Pace
So agreed PACE means peace but my mantle originated from the corny ACE
p_ace and shortened to pace but happy with the above descriptions too
But going way off topic and all because of PAX
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th December 2015 at 13:02.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 2
From: Oxford, UK
Whatever!
All you Latin Scholars, Dona nobis pacem!
And a Merry Christmas to ATPLs, CPLs, PPLs, and even the lowly SLF! may your seats be wide and the waiting brief, and be not led into temptation in the shopping precincts....
Feliz Noel!
All you Latin Scholars, Dona nobis pacem!
And a Merry Christmas to ATPLs, CPLs, PPLs, and even the lowly SLF! may your seats be wide and the waiting brief, and be not led into temptation in the shopping precincts....
Feliz Noel!
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
Where do I obtain a waiting brief?
Merry Chrimbo all. (That's NOT latin!- or is it?)
JJOE.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
may your seats be wide and the waiting brief
That is the problem with the English language the same words mean different things Mary not referring to you but a jovial Santa
This thread going crazy Pace
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,270
Likes: 0
From: The World
What a Vanity Fair this thread has gone ... It appears there are a lot of different worlds showcased and not every seem to be based on current reality.
My end of the story: after internal review with the FIs training the student and the schools owner, there was a serious chat with the student. Result is, the school cancelled his articles of apprenticeship. Unfortunately, they still have not found a way to manage the grandchilds of "everybody can do everything if only let" and helplessness is all around. Ooh, we had a printout of this thread on the table upon review and were amazed how far people tend to blame us without even knowing an itzy bit of background facts. I took my consequences now and retired from teaching. I am too old to deal with this part of the new generation, feeling there are too many illcompromised, and leave teaching to people with a different temper. There are times one has to part and I am now the dinosaur simply enjoying the rest of my life.
My end of the story: after internal review with the FIs training the student and the schools owner, there was a serious chat with the student. Result is, the school cancelled his articles of apprenticeship. Unfortunately, they still have not found a way to manage the grandchilds of "everybody can do everything if only let" and helplessness is all around. Ooh, we had a printout of this thread on the table upon review and were amazed how far people tend to blame us without even knowing an itzy bit of background facts. I took my consequences now and retired from teaching. I am too old to deal with this part of the new generation, feeling there are too many illcompromised, and leave teaching to people with a different temper. There are times one has to part and I am now the dinosaur simply enjoying the rest of my life.