Side step "private flying" entirely?

[Armchairflyer]

@SSD

Granted, but unlike the "GA-sharpened mind" I'd see VFR aerobatic experience as a "nice-to-have" at best for an airline pilot and would rather have him/her being skilled in raw data IFR flying or knowing the aircraft systems inside out. This applies even more to tailwheel skills which might actually necessitate some "un-learning". I recall an ex-glider and ex-GA airline pilot telling about his big jet instructors and colleagues snarling at the "damned ex-glider pilot" and telling him to "stop mucking about with the rudder"

[abgd]

For some of my recent airline flights it's been quite noticeable that the pilots weren't quite sure what to do with the rudder. I'd assumed it was due to a lack of basic flying skills, but perhaps they were all ex-glider pilots.

That said, I'd wager that your glider-pilot acquaintance learned what to do or not to do with the rudder sooner or later, but that he at least knew how to fly, which a number of recent accidents have shown is something not all pilots are able to do.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

abgd - quite so. Armchair - IFR ability and systems knowledge are assumed to be there as well! It's not 'one or the other'. I bet Sully had both, was an aerobatic and glider pilot, and knew how to use an Airbus rudder!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I recall an ex-glider and ex-GA airline pilot telling about his big jet instructors and colleagues snarling at the "damned ex-glider pilot" and telling him to "stop mucking about with the rudder"

I recall a floatplane instructor telling about his students whose day job was flying Airbuses, and how he had to start by explaining to them what a rudder was.

[Armchairflyer]

No disagreement here (@abgd, SSD, GtW), but I maintain that compared to the "mind-sharpening" experiences from planning and conducting GA flights which SSD mentioned before, enhanced VFR aerobatic skills and tailwheel experience are rather low on the must/should have-list for being proficient in the airline environment.

Put differently, I would probably feel somewhat uneasy as SLF with a cockpit crew who have hardly done any actual "raw" flying. But I wouldn't care at all whether this flying was partly inverted or which side the auxiliary wheel was on.

[abgd]

I think it's primarily the solo aspect of flying that makes such a difference - you have to improve your handling skills whether it's in gliding or aerobatics or solo navs. I'll confess I don't know a whole lot about airline flying, but as previously mentioned, flying solo cultivates an ability to make important decisions and take responsibility in a way that you simply never learn to do if you're flying with another pilot... it's something that carries over to the rest of your life as well.

Granted these young ATPLs will be flying with training captains and will be well versed in crew resource management - which I'm not. But sooner or later they'll graduate to being training captains themselves and it certainly seems odd to me that the first time they take on that ultimate responsibility of being pilot in command it'll be with a few hundred people in the back, rather than on their own.

[9 lives]

I think it's primarily the solo aspect of flying that makes such a difference

Yup, me too.

Being sent solo in an aircraft is a demonstration of trust that you can handle it. The owner is satisfied that you have what it takes - now you have to fill those shoes. A pilot who has never been sent solo never really knows that they are trusted, nor have demonstrated that level of skill - someone else is still there to hold their hand. For years I bimbled about solo as a student helicopter pilot. I could take the helicopter here or there for lunch or whatever, as a solo student, with my instructor's signoff. I built decision making skills for helicopter flying, in a different circuit (really none) and quarter of the same airports I knew well as a fixed wing pilots. Then, I earned my helicopter license (really to enable acceptance of the offer of a type rating on a bigger machine). But with that, I lost the status of "student" and was no longer able to take a machine solo. I have not flown one solo since. Not for inability, but for reasons of insurance. So I'm baby sat when I fly helicopters, with a more experienced pilot who tells me I fly fine, but I never really get to prove it to myself, nor make little mistakes from which to learn, as he will "suggest" a better way before I find that my idea was inadequate.

Solo flying just builds vital confidence.

Though aerobatic and taildragger is not critically important, that type of flying will always make a better pilot than not. Either will demand that the pilot control the aircraft with precision that no other fixed wing flying will require. Once either or both of those flying types are somewhat mastered, the pilot will be much more able to sense any small deviations from the intended flight path, and instinctively return the aircraft to the intended path with much less delay, or oscillation about the intended path. Simply, they won't be sloppy any more, and they'll remember that the rest of their career.

[horizon flyer]

I believe the last two airliners that dead stick in successful had experienced glider pilots in control. The Hudson and one in Canada that ran out of fuel, mixed up liters and lbs when loading think it was an airbus. So there may be some gains with glider experience although excessive ruder input can snap the tail off an airbus.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Yeah but.. Most commercial pilots with gliding experience are lifetime aviators. They started on gliders, went on to power and probably aerobatics, joined the military and flew fast jets, then ended their careers captaining an airliner.

I think this is the profile of Capt. Sully. Those are the guys I want up front when I'm down the back.

The 'Mr dangerous' types are those that go from zero to the airliner flight deck as their first move. They have no idea what flying is about.

[Radix]

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[First_Principal]

horizon flyer: The Hudson and one in Canada that ran out of fuel, mixed up liters and lbs when loading think it was an airbus.

The Canadian 'plane was a 767 IIRC, but you have the issue correct.

Sometimes this incident is put forward as an example of how lucky they were it was a Boeing and not an Airbus, as there could have been trouble 'crossing up' an Airbus. Not having flown either I couldn't comment, but certainly I'd not want to fly something that prevented me from doing what had to be done!

FP.

[9 lives]

I was training with my young charge the other day, in the Super Cub, with my teaching her full pedal sustained forward slips for the purpose of loosing lots of altitude to make your chosen spot. She asked me if an airliner could do the same. I thought for a moment ('cause I'm not a jet pilot) an offered that I thought probably yes, though you'd really be throwing the pax around in the back, and with the availability of spoilers it was probably much less necessary.

But, if I recall, the Air Canada 767, which came to be known as the "Gimli Glider" for the power off landing on the runway in Gimli, Manitoba, was slipped to get it onto the spot. Hence the reference to glider pilot skills - actually hand flying the plane!

I wonder if the "never learned PPL" jet pilots of tomorrow will ever be taught the tricks to get an aircraft to make the spot?

Interestingly, though I earned my helicopter license years ago, and have some decent type training since, it was only recently I was taught to sideslip during autorotation to make a spot which was nearly directly below - it works a treat!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

My mate who did fly airliners reckon they used to use slips occasionally.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

SSD

Agree with you entirely!

You can't beat the background of training and experience built up over the years.

You can buy a licence, but you can't buy experience!

SITW

[ChickenHouse]

I read the thread with mixed feelings. Although much written seems correct for a pilots or even aviators view, I doubt the modern tourists cattle cheap flying operator LHS & RHS can and will be measured like this.

[Radix]

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