4-Seat a/c for sale with 500 engine hours. £16k. What am I missing?
Do you need to get lots of IMC and night experience for your hour building?
If not, you could pick up a 1-seater permit aircraft like a Mono for 6-7k and benefit from vastly lower fuel costs than you would get from running a 4-seater. If you wanted to invest the savings into a few hours on an IMC equipped aircraft then I'm sure you'd have change left over.
I bought a Turbulent which, despite a glowing pre-buy inspection turned out to have a number of issues. Had it been certified, every penny would have been wasted as it would have been totally un-economical to fix. As things are, fixing it has been time-consuming but hasn't broken the bank. It's also been quite rewarding, and I certainly learned more about the technical side of aircraft than I would have through owning a certified machine.
I can't see that owning a certified machine makes sense unless you want it as a business (e.g. to rent out) or you need the IMC/Night capability.
If not, you could pick up a 1-seater permit aircraft like a Mono for 6-7k and benefit from vastly lower fuel costs than you would get from running a 4-seater. If you wanted to invest the savings into a few hours on an IMC equipped aircraft then I'm sure you'd have change left over.
I bought a Turbulent which, despite a glowing pre-buy inspection turned out to have a number of issues. Had it been certified, every penny would have been wasted as it would have been totally un-economical to fix. As things are, fixing it has been time-consuming but hasn't broken the bank. It's also been quite rewarding, and I certainly learned more about the technical side of aircraft than I would have through owning a certified machine.
I can't see that owning a certified machine makes sense unless you want it as a business (e.g. to rent out) or you need the IMC/Night capability.
this shared ownership idea
I started my flying with a low cost airplane just like you are considering...(that was in 1960's) and just a few years ago enters a shared ownership as you now contemplate..
Both arrangements produced cost effective fun flying. The main difference between the two arrangements was when the shared ownership aircraft sustained damage.....it took an unreasonably long time to restore to serviceability....(due to several people each with their own agenda)...
Both arrangements produced cost effective fun flying. The main difference between the two arrangements was when the shared ownership aircraft sustained damage.....it took an unreasonably long time to restore to serviceability....(due to several people each with their own agenda)...
Fully depends what you want from that airplane. I would not think so negatively of it. Tigers are not that often on the market and then a LOT more expensive usually.
If you want it as a pure VFR tourer? The Tiger is great for that. 140 kt cruise, decent payload and range, they usually are much more expensive. The advantages of the Tiger are that they are relatively economical in terms of what they need in maintenance: fixed gear and prop will do that. It won't set you back more than a PA28 but it is a good 20-30 kts faster!
You would need a full pre-buy with an experienced Grumman mechanic. But you need that with any plane you buy.
From the add: I am not a fan of such adds which really don't say much. The general numbers look not too bad, 500 hours on the engine, yea ok if it is what it's meant to portray (500 hrs since full overhaul or remanufacture) and it does look quite decent from the outside, inside a tad challenged. IF those figures are ok, then that is one quite decent airframe.
Avionics: The Trigg is good news. The audio panel is old but trusty. Whether that DME is still useable, don't know. The 2 nav/coms need eventual replacement. Don't know how long you can still fly with 720 channels, but for VFR, you don't need an expensive set.
What is "nice" about a plane like that is that you can eventually make it your own and put there what you want rather than be annoyed about what someone else bought. For a VFR plane, you could simply get one of those 8.33 Garmin sets which cost about 2.5k $, or you could look around for one or two GNS430 to replace those kings. VFR, a GPS695 with a panel mount can do the trick together with one new nav com. These are upgrades which won't break the bank and will do the job.
AP: For this airplane I'd recommend a S-Tec system 30. That would set you back around 20k installed.
As a first airplane for VFR touring, I'd try to get the price down a tad and give it a go (provided that all important pre-buy inspection does not bring up any show stoppers.) Tigers are fun airplanes. Then see that you can eventually upgrade those nav coms and have a great time flying it.
IF the plane is properly airworthy, the engine really 500 hrs since overhaul and the pre-buy checks out, try to get it for 15k. Upgraded those planes have asking prices of around 40k easily, so you could safely spend some 20k to make it yours and have good chances to resell eventually.
my 2 cents.
And of course: It kind of looks out for a pilot named "Gerry"
If you want it as a pure VFR tourer? The Tiger is great for that. 140 kt cruise, decent payload and range, they usually are much more expensive. The advantages of the Tiger are that they are relatively economical in terms of what they need in maintenance: fixed gear and prop will do that. It won't set you back more than a PA28 but it is a good 20-30 kts faster!
You would need a full pre-buy with an experienced Grumman mechanic. But you need that with any plane you buy.
From the add: I am not a fan of such adds which really don't say much. The general numbers look not too bad, 500 hours on the engine, yea ok if it is what it's meant to portray (500 hrs since full overhaul or remanufacture) and it does look quite decent from the outside, inside a tad challenged. IF those figures are ok, then that is one quite decent airframe.
Avionics: The Trigg is good news. The audio panel is old but trusty. Whether that DME is still useable, don't know. The 2 nav/coms need eventual replacement. Don't know how long you can still fly with 720 channels, but for VFR, you don't need an expensive set.
What is "nice" about a plane like that is that you can eventually make it your own and put there what you want rather than be annoyed about what someone else bought. For a VFR plane, you could simply get one of those 8.33 Garmin sets which cost about 2.5k $, or you could look around for one or two GNS430 to replace those kings. VFR, a GPS695 with a panel mount can do the trick together with one new nav com. These are upgrades which won't break the bank and will do the job.
AP: For this airplane I'd recommend a S-Tec system 30. That would set you back around 20k installed.
As a first airplane for VFR touring, I'd try to get the price down a tad and give it a go (provided that all important pre-buy inspection does not bring up any show stoppers.) Tigers are fun airplanes. Then see that you can eventually upgrade those nav coms and have a great time flying it.
IF the plane is properly airworthy, the engine really 500 hrs since overhaul and the pre-buy checks out, try to get it for 15k. Upgraded those planes have asking prices of around 40k easily, so you could safely spend some 20k to make it yours and have good chances to resell eventually.
my 2 cents.
And of course: It kind of looks out for a pilot named "Gerry"
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For this airplane I'd recommend a S-Tec system 30. That would set you back around 20k installed.
While dining with another well known poster here in a fine English pub earlier in the year, we mused about autopilots in VFR GA aircraft. I mentioned to him that in 7000 hours of flying, my total use of an autopilot would not exceed 40 hours. He laughed, and said it was just about the same for him.
I agree that in IFR, single pilot, in tough weather, an autopilot can be a saver, and even a requirement for some operations. But in a light VFR tourer, a waste on money. The whole point of the aircraft is a platform to build skill and experience, so to pay a huge cost for equipment to prevent gaining this hands on flying experience seems silly to me....
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Tiger is great for that. 140 kt cruise, decent payload and range, they usually are much more expensive.
Upgraded those planes have asking prices of around 40k
Never, ever, think you will make money from upgrading. Upgrade because you want to.
i agree, spending money on an autopilot is a waste of time. I suspect that the seller doesn't know that it has an autopilot (usually they had a Century 1 which most people think is just a turn and slip indicator).
If you can, go to look at it yourself, and go through the logs. Then find your engineer. Use your engineer, not the local one. We made a profit on sending our local guy from Inverness to Cornwall, on work to be done before we bought. But you can't afford to do this unless you are likely to buy. We'd looked at several planes, talked to our engineer, and had enough information to make a NO decision.
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AP: For this airplane I'd recommend a S-Tec system 30. That would set you back around 20k installed.
While the autopilot is a nice to have, the last Tiger I flew did not fly hands-off.
That didn't stop me from flying 3+ hours on a moonless night.
The price comes out to $32K Canadian, but the ferry plus minimum $10K Transport Canada Import Airworthiness makes it much less a bargain in Canada. A yank could do well.
As for ferry or cross channel, they float
That didn't stop me from flying 3+ hours on a moonless night.
The price comes out to $32K Canadian, but the ferry plus minimum $10K Transport Canada Import Airworthiness makes it much less a bargain in Canada. A yank could do well.
As for ferry or cross channel, they float
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last Tiger I flew did not fly hands-off.
For the convenience of the pilot, they (as all aircraft) are fitted with flight controls, so hands off flying is not required.
If you want to log the time, fly the plane!
@Step Turn
Matter of taste I presume. I upgraded my airplane with an S-Tec 55x and an Aspen, as I wanted that functionality. It makes longer trips simply a LOT more relaxing. Even though my airplane would fly hands off, it is simply a lot easier to have "George" take the controls while I sort my charts, have a sip of water or do my checklists.
I did not tell him to buy an AP. I said if he wanted one, as many suggested, that would be my choice for this airplane. While my experience on the AA5 is limited, I recall reading a review about the Grummans which did suggest that they are quite lively and do profit from a dual axis AP. Most of them had the single axis Century I installed if I remember right.
Bob, we are both talking TAS, right? 120 kts would be realistic for a Cheetah rather.
In this POH for the 1977-79 Tiger on pages 5.19-22 the value for 75% at 8000 ft is 140 kts. Ok, that is probably the top speed at WOT, but that is how normally most fixed pitch prop airplanes fly. I'd settle for 130-140 kts Cruise TAS in most cases, unless the airplane is flown at low power. In terms of range, there is not much to be gained by using lower power settings. I see the difference in range between max speed and max range around 40 NM...
Alt: PWR: KTAS: Range (plus 45' VFR reserve)
8000 75% 139 550NM
12000 75% 131 580NM
12000 55% 121 592NM
(Page 5-24)
In an airplane like that, flying "Eco Cruise" really doesn't gain you much range or economy. These planes are best flown at wide open throttle and optimum mixture. The Tiger is a pretty fast machine for the fact that it is a fixed gear / fixed prop machine. And 550 NM should be enough for most VFR trips.
I agree. But it is useful to know what a fully equipped one usually costs.
Interesting. Genesys do not carry a price list. Last year when I checked at the Aero the System 30 was around $13000. I paid €5k for my installation of the 55x, which is quite a bit more complex. So unless Genesys have upped the prices massively, I'd guess €20k should do for a system 30.
I mentioned to him that in 7000 hours of flying, my total use of an autopilot would not exceed 40 hours. He laughed, and said it was just about the same for him.
But in a light VFR tourer, a waste on money. The whole point of the aircraft is a platform to build skill and experience, so to pay a huge cost for equipment to prevent gaining this hands on flying experience seems silly to me....
I have never flown a Tiger that does 140kts. 120kts is more realistic and have flown many Tigers.
In this POH for the 1977-79 Tiger on pages 5.19-22 the value for 75% at 8000 ft is 140 kts. Ok, that is probably the top speed at WOT, but that is how normally most fixed pitch prop airplanes fly. I'd settle for 130-140 kts Cruise TAS in most cases, unless the airplane is flown at low power. In terms of range, there is not much to be gained by using lower power settings. I see the difference in range between max speed and max range around 40 NM...
Alt: PWR: KTAS: Range (plus 45' VFR reserve)
8000 75% 139 550NM
12000 75% 131 580NM
12000 55% 121 592NM
(Page 5-24)
In an airplane like that, flying "Eco Cruise" really doesn't gain you much range or economy. These planes are best flown at wide open throttle and optimum mixture. The Tiger is a pretty fast machine for the fact that it is a fixed gear / fixed prop machine. And 550 NM should be enough for most VFR trips.
Never, ever, think you will make money from upgrading. Upgrade because you want to.
These times are over since Genesys took over the S-Tec systems. I doubt anything below 25k will be possible, suspect more to 30 ...
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A friend installed an S-Tec 30 in his 182 amphibian. It works well, though I hardly ever use it. I believe that it was around CDN$30k, so the 20k Euros sounds about correct. Massively out of proportion in a sub $100k aircraft in my opinion.
If the aircraft comes with the avionics which support the use of an autopilot (full IFR +), it probably cost more than $100k. Or, you're going to have to add another $30k in avionics to get the "empty radio stack" plane to that point.
The aforementioned 182 received a totally new panel, with all new top of the line radios for full IFR, glass panel, and the S-Tec30. I believe that passed the $100K mark by the time it was installed and running well.
If the aircraft comes with the avionics which support the use of an autopilot (full IFR +), it probably cost more than $100k. Or, you're going to have to add another $30k in avionics to get the "empty radio stack" plane to that point.
The aforementioned 182 received a totally new panel, with all new top of the line radios for full IFR, glass panel, and the S-Tec30. I believe that passed the $100K mark by the time it was installed and running well.
It really comes down what you want to do with an airplane.
This AA5 looks to me as if it could be used VFR as is (depending when they are mandating 8.33 for VFR) for quite some time as, what the OP said, time builder and inexpensive Burger Run shuttle. For flights of up to 2 hours or so, going purely VFR, what else do you need. If anything, get a hand held GPS and mount it someplace and be done. Any Garmin 495/695 or Ipad/Android based GPS will do that job nicely.
It is however a much more capable airplane than that.
Basically, the AA5 is the fastest fixed gear/prop certified plane I am aware of, it will most of the time fly similar speeds than some retracables at much less cost. Also with the range of 500+NM it is quite suitable for travel in Europe.
So it is all down to what you want to do. If you plan on using this airplane to its full capacity, you can fly up to 5 hours in it. In flights like that, an AP is quite desirable.
The other bit with airplanes with "avionic museums" is, that they can be regarded as a "white sheet" on which to develop what you really want. Because, what most people really want is mostly not out there. Many airplanes which are even IFR these days carry equipment which will need the same kind of upgrades than a full replacement, but at a much higher initial cost.
If that way "MY" project, I´d probably go out and look for a 530/430W combo, S-Tec 30 AP and Aspen PFD. That would leave this airplane as an excellent tourer with even IFR capability if needed.
If I was only doing VFR and staying there, I´d put a new radio, buy a 2nd hand GPS695 and panel mount that and think about getting that AP for more comfortable travel.
I did the same to my own airplane, a Mooney M20C. My panel today looks like this:
I am extremely happy flying this 50 year old airframe in this configuration. It will go maybe 15 kts faster than an AA5 and 100 NM further, but other than that the AA5 can do the same missions. I was looking around for one at the time, if I had seen this one, I´d probably have had a close look at it. It would basically do a similar job but a tad cheaper due to the fixed gear and prop.
This AA5 looks to me as if it could be used VFR as is (depending when they are mandating 8.33 for VFR) for quite some time as, what the OP said, time builder and inexpensive Burger Run shuttle. For flights of up to 2 hours or so, going purely VFR, what else do you need. If anything, get a hand held GPS and mount it someplace and be done. Any Garmin 495/695 or Ipad/Android based GPS will do that job nicely.
It is however a much more capable airplane than that.
Basically, the AA5 is the fastest fixed gear/prop certified plane I am aware of, it will most of the time fly similar speeds than some retracables at much less cost. Also with the range of 500+NM it is quite suitable for travel in Europe.
So it is all down to what you want to do. If you plan on using this airplane to its full capacity, you can fly up to 5 hours in it. In flights like that, an AP is quite desirable.
The other bit with airplanes with "avionic museums" is, that they can be regarded as a "white sheet" on which to develop what you really want. Because, what most people really want is mostly not out there. Many airplanes which are even IFR these days carry equipment which will need the same kind of upgrades than a full replacement, but at a much higher initial cost.
If that way "MY" project, I´d probably go out and look for a 530/430W combo, S-Tec 30 AP and Aspen PFD. That would leave this airplane as an excellent tourer with even IFR capability if needed.
If I was only doing VFR and staying there, I´d put a new radio, buy a 2nd hand GPS695 and panel mount that and think about getting that AP for more comfortable travel.
I did the same to my own airplane, a Mooney M20C. My panel today looks like this:
I am extremely happy flying this 50 year old airframe in this configuration. It will go maybe 15 kts faster than an AA5 and 100 NM further, but other than that the AA5 can do the same missions. I was looking around for one at the time, if I had seen this one, I´d probably have had a close look at it. It would basically do a similar job but a tad cheaper due to the fixed gear and prop.
Moderator
If the OP presents:
.....about a 15,000 plane, is a prolonged discussion about 30K autopilots and a full IFR radio stack not thread drift?
So as a newbie low time student perusing the web I come across this. Seems to good to be true, so it must be.
.about a 15,000 plane, is a prolonged discussion about 30K autopilots and a full IFR radio stack not thread drift?
So let's ask the other question then.
As is: 720 channel radio and Mode S Transponder, 2x VOR, 1x ILS and a non TSO'd DME. 500 hrs on the engine. Provided a pre-buy inspection unearths no show stoppers:
Now is that an airplane which the OP can buy, sit inside and fly off and do what the original question was?
Or does he need any form of upgrade pretty sharpishly (8.33, where is that required for VFR)?
EDIT: I today got the information that 8.33 will be required as of January 1st 2018 EASA wide, so that settles that. We have 2016 for all practical purposes so that AA5 can fly on as it is until then and then needs to get a 8.33 radio.
If nothing is required, it could really be a nice time builder airframe with potential to become more than that eventually.
Clearly my intention was not to tell him he has to upgrade it to IFR, but simply to show possible options for different types of usage. From where I am sitting, this little AA5 could be flown as is with possibly a handheld GPS if so desired.
But IF he finds that after flying it for a while, it could benfit from some improvements, I wanted to give him some ideas on what the possibilities are.
Last edited by AN2 Driver; 3rd Dec 2015 at 10:16.
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Upgrading a Tiger
If the airframe is clean and the engine looks good, it could be worth it. A sorted out Tiger would bring more money than the asking for this plane. I would say it's worth a close look by an engineer familiar with the type. But make sure you have the resources available in addition to purchase price to get it sorted (and that might include an engine overhaul). My experience suggests you won't discover everything you need to know in the pre buy.
Don't forget the cost of 8.33. The fact that it has Mode S might be a good sign. It might mean the owner is not flat broke and has been trying to maintain the plane. (I suspect we'll see a number of VFR planes come on to the market this year as people throw in the towel over required upgrades.)
I'm speaking as someone in the middle stages of sorting out a plane bought "cheaply." If you can get it airworthy for VFR, you can upgrade it in stages as finances allow and fly it in the meantime.
Had I not bought the Rallye, I would actually be looking at this one. The advantage of a Tiger is that the upper limit of price for a sorted one is higher than that of many other planes.
Don't forget the cost of 8.33. The fact that it has Mode S might be a good sign. It might mean the owner is not flat broke and has been trying to maintain the plane. (I suspect we'll see a number of VFR planes come on to the market this year as people throw in the towel over required upgrades.)
I'm speaking as someone in the middle stages of sorting out a plane bought "cheaply." If you can get it airworthy for VFR, you can upgrade it in stages as finances allow and fly it in the meantime.
Had I not bought the Rallye, I would actually be looking at this one. The advantage of a Tiger is that the upper limit of price for a sorted one is higher than that of many other planes.
Last edited by WhiskeyPapa; 5th Dec 2015 at 10:30.
Don't forget the cost of 8.33.
What can be worth it, especcially in a panel like this one, is to maybe look for a GNS430 or even 530 second hand, as they are coming down in price too. VFR does not need WAAS, so there will be quite a few of those around when people upgrade to the new GTN series. But most of the 430/530 could even be upgraded to WAAS If necessary, i.e. if there were to be a ADS-B mandate at some stage. That combination would work with the Trigg.
(I suspect we'll see a number of VFR planes come on to the market this year as people throw in the towel over required upgrades.)
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My thoughts are Plane Trading are a above board company and price realistically not an owner hoped for price and do not trade in full basket cases.
So this AA5 will be priced for what it is, a usable VFR hour builder.
If you want a GPS buy something you can take home and program 430/530s are a pain as you have to sit with engine running and program them. Garmin missed the plot on them, as it does have a spare memory slot. Could have designed them to program on a PC/Mac/other they have the training software.
So this AA5 will be priced for what it is, a usable VFR hour builder.
If you want a GPS buy something you can take home and program 430/530s are a pain as you have to sit with engine running and program them. Garmin missed the plot on them, as it does have a spare memory slot. Could have designed them to program on a PC/Mac/other they have the training software.
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430/530 are not that bad and most of the time you have to program, or reprogram anyways at clearance. If you want "home story programming" go for a WAAS version, which allows programming at your PC@home and transfer via the PC interface.
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Has the OP made any enquiries or had someone look at it? I am just interested to hear if this really is a bargain or a crock of...
When you consider that there are people in the USA paying around £10,000 to put a new STC'd engine cowling on these aircraft, you have to wonder why aircraft in the UK are so cheap if this is a good one.
When you consider that there are people in the USA paying around £10,000 to put a new STC'd engine cowling on these aircraft, you have to wonder why aircraft in the UK are so cheap if this is a good one.
Aircraft are cheap because there is hardly any market.
They can also be too cheap, if the seller lacks confidence from looking at the current adds and concluding that his plane is not worth anything... have seen that too.
Frankly, you can't judge any add, any plane and any owner unless you have had expert advice on the plane in question. And before you buy, there is that all important pre-buy inspection. Without it, forget even looking at planes.
From afar, this AA5 looks like it is not badly priced for what it has to offer, in a normal marketplace it could make much more, but this is no normal market anymore. This plane is looking for someone who either wants to fly cheap as is (and put in a Trigg Radio in 2 years time) or someone who has been looking for a Tiger to make his own.
But without a serious inquiry, this is simply a game of guessing.
They can also be too cheap, if the seller lacks confidence from looking at the current adds and concluding that his plane is not worth anything... have seen that too.
Frankly, you can't judge any add, any plane and any owner unless you have had expert advice on the plane in question. And before you buy, there is that all important pre-buy inspection. Without it, forget even looking at planes.
From afar, this AA5 looks like it is not badly priced for what it has to offer, in a normal marketplace it could make much more, but this is no normal market anymore. This plane is looking for someone who either wants to fly cheap as is (and put in a Trigg Radio in 2 years time) or someone who has been looking for a Tiger to make his own.
But without a serious inquiry, this is simply a game of guessing.