Question for Chuck and others
Chuck, unfortunately many things invented by psychobabbling airline trick-cyclists are filtering down into the PPL world over here.....
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I think that threat and error management has a place in all flying, it's a great tool to have.
Single pilot CRM can be just as important as multi pilot CRM. It's not just for airline pilots.
Single pilot CRM can be just as important as multi pilot CRM. It's not just for airline pilots.
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Given that CRM in the aviation world stands for CREW resource management. I'm inclined toward the physo-babble definition of threat and error management.
It is simply dressing things up in a trendy new set of words. Works really well in the consultancy world (an area I directly work in) as it looks new and relevant.
Does it actually improve the management of PFLs - nope and in many cases it adds a potential for further confusion by introducing terms which can modify the way people think of problems. Adding in another way in which events can be described does no one any favours - particularly in high stress situations - when learned responses have been demonstrated to be much more reliable than 'blue sky' thinking etc....
It is simply dressing things up in a trendy new set of words. Works really well in the consultancy world (an area I directly work in) as it looks new and relevant.
Does it actually improve the management of PFLs - nope and in many cases it adds a potential for further confusion by introducing terms which can modify the way people think of problems. Adding in another way in which events can be described does no one any favours - particularly in high stress situations - when learned responses have been demonstrated to be much more reliable than 'blue sky' thinking etc....
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If it doesn't improve the mangement of situations normal, non normal or emergency, then it is being used incorrectly. The problem with the "blue sky" thinking as you put it is that it is met with resistance or is taught poorly just because it has to be taught.
It was my topic of choice for my Assessment of Competence and I received nothing other than praise for it.
It was my topic of choice for my Assessment of Competence and I received nothing other than praise for it.
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Gliding first, then add power...enjoy both!
Booker Gliding Club at Wycombe Air Park, not far from White Waltham, which is tucked under the apron of the London Heathrow Zone....
Back in 1983, I turned up and had two flights in a K21 glass fibre glider with Bernie Fitchett, who was a top glider competition pilot, and member of the British Team. Wycombe Air Park (WAP) shared the field with the British Airways Flying Club, the Wycombe Air Centre (Wycombe Scare Centre), and a Helicopter operation which sometimes changed its name....
To say nothing of the steady stream of heavy jets passing not far overhead when the wind was from the East.
So we had to contend with plenty of limitations on airspace, and learned right off to keep a jolly good lookout. The gliding was aerotow only. So costly. I went solo in 3 months, and the following summer achieved the Silver Badge qualification, which involved a 50 kilometer trip in a basic sort of glider, probably about 27 to one glide performance. A gain of height from lowest point, I seem to remember 1,000 meters. And ENDURANCE -
staying aloft - for FIVE HOURS.
A lot of experience, then. And only a minimum of hours required to gain the Private Pilots License...I recall was it 8 hours? not a lot, anyhow.
WAP was handy to make the transition, after learning to fly gliders, to
earn the PPL at the school of your choice...
As others have mentioned, the only problem was dealing with radio yak. We already knew how to takeoff in formation (on the end of a rope) and to do an emergency landing - how to navigate (follow the motorway), and most particularly learned to interpret weather.
Since then I became a gliding instructor, tug pilot, and got the instrument rating in Texas, where petrol was cheaper! and the enroute controllers friendly, and the landings were free! Meanwhile, back in the UK, I joined a farmers gliding club, with winch launches (cheaper, scarier, I dare anyone reading this to have a go on a winch launch!). If you don't find lift, it is a five minute flight, so lots of practice taking off and landing.
Certainly the gliding is much more challenging in every way, and I have flown in competition, in mountain wave, along the coastline of Devon and Cornwall, so scary and beautiful. I bought a Supercub (with a towhook, of course) and flew it to Spain by myself, to France with a friend, to Ireland, with another friend, where it got stuck in a bog....
And now? it is my great pleasure to introduce teenagers to gliding. I help out on the ground, not in the air. Passing the torch. I no longer fly Pilot in Charge, but looking at the chart for tomorrow, these low pressure cu-nimbs should relent, and the day should be a good one. Roll on summer!
Back in 1983, I turned up and had two flights in a K21 glass fibre glider with Bernie Fitchett, who was a top glider competition pilot, and member of the British Team. Wycombe Air Park (WAP) shared the field with the British Airways Flying Club, the Wycombe Air Centre (Wycombe Scare Centre), and a Helicopter operation which sometimes changed its name....
To say nothing of the steady stream of heavy jets passing not far overhead when the wind was from the East.
So we had to contend with plenty of limitations on airspace, and learned right off to keep a jolly good lookout. The gliding was aerotow only. So costly. I went solo in 3 months, and the following summer achieved the Silver Badge qualification, which involved a 50 kilometer trip in a basic sort of glider, probably about 27 to one glide performance. A gain of height from lowest point, I seem to remember 1,000 meters. And ENDURANCE -
staying aloft - for FIVE HOURS.
A lot of experience, then. And only a minimum of hours required to gain the Private Pilots License...I recall was it 8 hours? not a lot, anyhow.
WAP was handy to make the transition, after learning to fly gliders, to
earn the PPL at the school of your choice...
As others have mentioned, the only problem was dealing with radio yak. We already knew how to takeoff in formation (on the end of a rope) and to do an emergency landing - how to navigate (follow the motorway), and most particularly learned to interpret weather.
Since then I became a gliding instructor, tug pilot, and got the instrument rating in Texas, where petrol was cheaper! and the enroute controllers friendly, and the landings were free! Meanwhile, back in the UK, I joined a farmers gliding club, with winch launches (cheaper, scarier, I dare anyone reading this to have a go on a winch launch!). If you don't find lift, it is a five minute flight, so lots of practice taking off and landing.
Certainly the gliding is much more challenging in every way, and I have flown in competition, in mountain wave, along the coastline of Devon and Cornwall, so scary and beautiful. I bought a Supercub (with a towhook, of course) and flew it to Spain by myself, to France with a friend, to Ireland, with another friend, where it got stuck in a bog....
And now? it is my great pleasure to introduce teenagers to gliding. I help out on the ground, not in the air. Passing the torch. I no longer fly Pilot in Charge, but looking at the chart for tomorrow, these low pressure cu-nimbs should relent, and the day should be a good one. Roll on summer!
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Given that CRM in the aviation world stands for CREW resource management.
I'm inclined toward the physo-babble definition of threat and error management.
It is simply dressing things up in a trendy new set of words. Works really well in the consultancy world (an area I directly work in) as it looks new and relevant.
It is simply dressing things up in a trendy new set of words. Works really well in the consultancy world (an area I directly work in) as it looks new and relevant.
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Read the CAA CAP737, and any other reasonable document regarding CRM, it places equal importance on CRM in both single pilot and multi pilot operations.
If you feel that a single pilot is not a crew and doesn't interact with others then you have a very narrow minded way of operating. What about flight instruction? What about ATC, other aircraft inthe circuit/local area?
If you feel that a single pilot is not a crew and doesn't interact with others then you have a very narrow minded way of operating. What about flight instruction? What about ATC, other aircraft inthe circuit/local area?
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The emperor's new clothes.
There are a number of people making a good living from dressing up things anyone with any level of sentience already knew.
- seems to say it all, do you mean you passed?
There are a number of people making a good living from dressing up things anyone with any level of sentience already knew.
It was my topic of choice for my Assessment of Competence and I received nothing other than praise for it
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If you feel that a single pilot is not a crew and doesn't interact with others then you have a very narrow minded way of operating.
What about flight instruction?
What about ATC, other aircraft inthe circuit/local area?
I think it is unfortunate that the original poster asked about gliding and we are now in a slanging match about flight safety philosophies. Chuck knows exactly what TEM is, so I have to wonder what the motivation for asking the leading question was ........
Back to the topic at hand
One point which hasn't really been touched on is that powered aircraft flying training is a business and you are the customer while gliding is more a hobby with a huge volunteer "club" aspect.
By that I mean everyone is expected to help out the gliding operations and so you don't just turn up and go for a glider lesson. A glider lesson is really going to be an all day event of which only a part will be in the air because you will be helping get the gliders out to the flight line, retrieve ropes , run wing tips etc etc.
For me that is part of the appeal as there socializing at the aerodrome and mucking in to get the gliders airbourne is part of the fun.
If that does not really appeal to you, powered flying from the outset is probably best as you can generally book a lesson show up, do the briefing, go flying, and then go home.
Back to the topic at hand
One point which hasn't really been touched on is that powered aircraft flying training is a business and you are the customer while gliding is more a hobby with a huge volunteer "club" aspect.
By that I mean everyone is expected to help out the gliding operations and so you don't just turn up and go for a glider lesson. A glider lesson is really going to be an all day event of which only a part will be in the air because you will be helping get the gliders out to the flight line, retrieve ropes , run wing tips etc etc.
For me that is part of the appeal as there socializing at the aerodrome and mucking in to get the gliders airbourne is part of the fun.
If that does not really appeal to you, powered flying from the outset is probably best as you can generally book a lesson show up, do the briefing, go flying, and then go home.
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I think it is unfortunate that the original poster asked about gliding and we are now in a slanging match about flight safety philosophies.
I know some people don't like thread drift but as the OP please continue. I intend to stir some kind of debate but was unsure about what direction it would take.
Not great or even very good. I do fly as much as I can in a variety of aerodynes and aerostats.
All flying is valuable, and all are equally valid means of getting into the air. Please can we be pilots, as opposed to glider pilots, balloon pilots, glider pilots, microlight pilots?
There are as many reasons for flying as there are aircraft, I think.
Some aircraft are better for teaching handling and judgement, some for moving heavy loads, others for simply having a pleasant amble around the sky.
In my opinion, and for what it is worth, it doesn't matter whether you fly a glider, a Cessna, a Tiger moth, or a weedhopper. Just do the best you can with what you have, and try to learn something new on every flight.
My PERSONAL and biased opinion is that a glider is a good way to learn judgement for flying gliders. It's not a stepping stone or an inferior activity, rather a near approach to being a bird.
A hot air balloon teaches appreciation of the finer points of meteorology, and a light aircraft is great for unreliable travel and meeting people. I don't think a forced landing in an aeroplane bears much relationship to a field landing in a glider. It's like the difference between consensual sex and rape.
Anyway, please remember that its supposed to be fun....I have fun in a standard Mucha, a tiny hot air balloon, and a supercub. I feel very fortunate to be able to do this, and hope to continue learning in all of them.
All flying is valuable, and all are equally valid means of getting into the air. Please can we be pilots, as opposed to glider pilots, balloon pilots, glider pilots, microlight pilots?
There are as many reasons for flying as there are aircraft, I think.
Some aircraft are better for teaching handling and judgement, some for moving heavy loads, others for simply having a pleasant amble around the sky.
In my opinion, and for what it is worth, it doesn't matter whether you fly a glider, a Cessna, a Tiger moth, or a weedhopper. Just do the best you can with what you have, and try to learn something new on every flight.
My PERSONAL and biased opinion is that a glider is a good way to learn judgement for flying gliders. It's not a stepping stone or an inferior activity, rather a near approach to being a bird.
A hot air balloon teaches appreciation of the finer points of meteorology, and a light aircraft is great for unreliable travel and meeting people. I don't think a forced landing in an aeroplane bears much relationship to a field landing in a glider. It's like the difference between consensual sex and rape.
Anyway, please remember that its supposed to be fun....I have fun in a standard Mucha, a tiny hot air balloon, and a supercub. I feel very fortunate to be able to do this, and hope to continue learning in all of them.
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I don't think a forced landing in an aeroplane bears much relationship to a field landing in a glider.
The language you use is very interesting and serves to illustrate a point. 'Forced' landing in a light aircraft and 'field' landing in a glider. Perhaps this is one of the main differences in mental approach. I wouldn't see a power off landing in a field other than the one you thought you were going to land in as any different to a field landing in a glider in a field other than the one you thought you were going to land in.
It's the 'Engine failure this is an emergency' mode that is the crux. It's not an emergency, it's an out of the normal situation that requires a field landing. If gliders land in fields because they have run out of sky why don't we call them forced landings? It's an aircraft, it's landing in a field, it's not where it intended to land. That's all.
Let's not split hairs here by the way, I'm talking about engine failure in the cruise over reasonable terrain (IE most of the UK) not an EFATO 200' up in the Rocky Mountains.
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I think it is unfortunate that the original poster asked about gliding and we are now in a slanging match about flight safety philosophies.
Those who would like to discuss flight safety philosophies are encouraged to start a new thread on that topic...
You've never flown a T21 then...
It's the 'Engine failure this is an emergency' mode that is the crux. It's not an emergency, it's an out of the normal situation that requires a field landing. If gliders land in fields because they have run out of sky why don't we call them forced landings? It's an aircraft, it's landing in a field, it's not where it intended to land. That's all.
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It's the 'Engine failure this is an emergency' mode that is the crux. It's not an emergency, it's an out of the normal situation that requires a field landing. If gliders land in fields because they have run out of sky why don't we call them forced landings? It's an aircraft, it's landing in a field, it's not where it intended to land. That's all.
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Lets compare a gliding landing between your T 21 and a C 172
Best Glide C 172 65 kts T 21 37 kts
Min Sink C 172 600 ft Min, T 21 175 ft/min
So the T 21 pilot will have 3 1/2 times the amount of time to figure out his landing and will arrive with about 1/12 th energy to dissipate in the run out.
The T 21 has a landing skid and a low pressure tyre making an upset on landing much more unlikely than a C 172 with a tall tricycle gear and higher pressure tyres.
The bottom line is the glider is designed to land in any field the C 172 is not. " Field" landings were not a design consideration because it has an engine to get it to an airport. That is why "forced landings" is in the C 172 POH in the emergency section. not in the Normal operating section.
To say an engine failure in a C 172 is not an emergency is IMO irresponsible.
That being said, like all the other bad things that can happen, an engine failure can be managed to a successful conclusion, that is no gets hurt, if properly handled. This requires a disciplined approach to operating the aircraft and a personal commitment to attain and then maintain a sufficiently high skill level that all emergencies can be effectively dealt with.
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Seeing as this thread was directed partly at me asking my thoughts on flying I want to add to this comment I made.
For pure pleasure I think Gyroplanes are number one for me, followed by Sail Planes, followed by helicopters, followed by aerobatic airplanes, followed by amphibious airplanes, followed by light to medium fixed wing airplanes....
....and last would be heavy aircraft that are flown by the paint by numbers method of SOP's and all those other acronyms.
There that is my slant on flying devices.
Flying sail planes is hands down one of the best type of flying I have ever done.
....and last would be heavy aircraft that are flown by the paint by numbers method of SOP's and all those other acronyms.
There that is my slant on flying devices.
Flying sail planes is hands down one of the best type of flying I have ever done.
!!
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I think you are giving an apples to oranges comparison.
Edit: by the way would you still have the same opinion if the engine failure was in a Cub with tundra tyres instead of a 172? Both powered aircraft after all. Plenty of Cubs knocking around.
I understand what you are saying but I still stand by my assertion that the mental picture we give vanilla PPLs of engine failure is wrong. It's not something that may cause imminent death, it's something that unless you are completely out of luck will lead to a safe and successful outcome, for you if not for the aircraft. It's nothing to worry or loose sleep about. You could say the same for field landing a glider. Many glider pilots have come unstuck purely through bad luck putting down in a field. Again I must stress that I'm putting a UK centric view on this. Most of the UK has fields you can put a Jumbo down in. Fields we are not in short supply of.
Last edited by thing; 25th Mar 2015 at 00:00.