(Only relevant in UK) CAP 413 RT for Air/Ground airfield
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That's interesting - as a student obviously my main experience is from my home A/G field - and there absolutely everyone seems to request a radio check in their initial call after startup. I'd say on the average flight I make I hear it 3 or 4 times from others. I guess everywhere is different.
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It's probably worth bearing in mind the following:
From CAP413:
From CAP452:
My bold.
An A/G operator is not even required to write anything down. It might not necessarily be his/her only task. He/she could be taking landing fees, making tea for punters, serving Eccles cakes, ice creams etc, answering the phone evry two minutes only to find it is always for somebody else, circumnavigating an obese pilot who has borrowed the chair to laboriously file a VFR flight plan to nowhere in particular, vacuuming the carpet, listening to the boring anecdotes of a low-hours pilot clutching an iPad and three GPSs who flies twice a year, or stopping a German Shepherd from stealing his sandwiches, or wrestling with the illogical vagaries of a non-user friendly touch-screen sales terminal. (I have a particular familiar location in mind..)
It's only A/G, just don't expect too much. And keep your eyes peeled...
From CAP413:
4.135
Local procedures vary from aerodrome to aerodrome and it is impossible to give examples to cover every situation which may arise at the multiplicity of different types of aerodrome.
Local procedures vary from aerodrome to aerodrome and it is impossible to give examples to cover every situation which may arise at the multiplicity of different types of aerodrome.
4.138
An AGCS radio station operator is not necessarily able to view any part of the aerodrome or surrounding airspace. Traffic information provided by an AGCS radio station operator is therefore based primarily on reports made by other pilots.
An AGCS radio station operator is not necessarily able to view any part of the aerodrome or surrounding airspace. Traffic information provided by an AGCS radio station operator is therefore based primarily on reports made by other pilots.
Chapter 4 Para 1.1
Air Ground Communications Service (AGCS) is a service provided to pilots at specific UK at aerodromes. However, it is not viewed by the UK as an Air Traffic Service because it does not include an alerting service as part of its content.
Air Ground Communications Service (AGCS) is a service provided to pilots at specific UK at aerodromes. However, it is not viewed by the UK as an Air Traffic Service because it does not include an alerting service as part of its content.
An A/G operator is not even required to write anything down. It might not necessarily be his/her only task. He/she could be taking landing fees, making tea for punters, serving Eccles cakes, ice creams etc, answering the phone evry two minutes only to find it is always for somebody else, circumnavigating an obese pilot who has borrowed the chair to laboriously file a VFR flight plan to nowhere in particular, vacuuming the carpet, listening to the boring anecdotes of a low-hours pilot clutching an iPad and three GPSs who flies twice a year, or stopping a German Shepherd from stealing his sandwiches, or wrestling with the illogical vagaries of a non-user friendly touch-screen sales terminal. (I have a particular familiar location in mind..)
It's only A/G, just don't expect too much. And keep your eyes peeled...
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An A/G operator is not even required to write anything down. It might not necessarily be his/her only task.
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Actually that's not true...the post was about me having too much time on my hands because the weather had stopped me practising more important things, like aviating and navigating :-)
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The "books" get refined regularly in an attempt to make them less confusing. I suppose that's good, but I wonder about some of the recommended words.
If I'm leaving the airfield, all I want to know from the A/G person is QNH, which runway's in use, and if there's anyone else around. I can't see "radio check" helping much with that. Anything else I need to know I already have, from the airfield plate on my plogboard, the NOTAMs, and the met information.
If the A/G op is not there, I'll set the QNH based on the known airfield elevation, and look at the windsock to decide which runway. If there's anyone in the circuit, I'll hear their calls by the time I get to the runway.
If I get no response to my call, but others do, then I'll ask for a radio check.
Announcing taxying, entering runway, and taking off tells everyone what's happening. Keeping eyes outside and alert spots the non-radio aircraft.
Arriving it's much the same. I usually ask for "joining information", which seems to communicate the requirement OK.
TDM's well known "Who are you, where are you, what do you want?" fulfils the rest.
If I'm leaving the airfield, all I want to know from the A/G person is QNH, which runway's in use, and if there's anyone else around. I can't see "radio check" helping much with that. Anything else I need to know I already have, from the airfield plate on my plogboard, the NOTAMs, and the met information.
If the A/G op is not there, I'll set the QNH based on the known airfield elevation, and look at the windsock to decide which runway. If there's anyone in the circuit, I'll hear their calls by the time I get to the runway.
If I get no response to my call, but others do, then I'll ask for a radio check.
Announcing taxying, entering runway, and taking off tells everyone what's happening. Keeping eyes outside and alert spots the non-radio aircraft.
Arriving it's much the same. I usually ask for "joining information", which seems to communicate the requirement OK.
TDM's well known "Who are you, where are you, what do you want?" fulfils the rest.
Remember when CAP413 was a 20 page HMSO booklet.
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An A/G operator is not even required to write anything down. It might not necessarily be his/her only task. He/she could be taking landing fees, making tea for punters, serving Eccles cakes, ice creams etc, answering the phone evry two minutes only to find it is always for somebody else, circumnavigating an obese pilot who has borrowed the chair to laboriously file a VFR flight plan to nowhere in particular, vacuuming the carpet, listening to the boring anecdotes of a low-hours pilot clutching an iPad and three GPSs who flies twice a year, or stopping a German Shepherd from stealing his sandwiches, or wrestling with the illogical vagaries of a non-user friendly touch-screen sales terminal. (I have a particular familiar location in mind..)
On days when the above aforementioned official multitasker is very busy peeps like me man the radio full time.
And what fun it is, as a pilot, to hear the crap other pilots tell A/G operators, and what 'information' pilots from larger fields visiting expect to get from the A/G radio operator.
I really don't need to know how long your flight will take, your persons on board, or your destination, how many cakes you consumed, or your routing - unless you precede those with MayDay!
I will tell you to watch your wingtips passing obstructions, give you information about grass conditions, provide helpful information about parking, fuel, the queues at the fuel which you might not see behind a building, demand (sorry ask) you slow down and do wide radius turns on the grass - Pilots from larger airports really love to leave their mark on the grass. E.t.c
As for someone asking me to pass them traffic information - almost unheard of apart from HeliMed wanting to cross at ATZ low level.
A/G can be much more than a 'Roger' to everything you say :-)
You can call up three times and tell me you are holding at the hold ready for departure, and you will still get the same reply, "Roger, wind is this and that" - if you are lucky and I can see beyond the glass I might also tell you there is one about to turn final.... but you should already know that as you were listening out... you can call me the forth time and you will get the same reply... I'm not going to give you a clearance or your discretion... it gets quite funny in the office after a while.... 4 times in my record...
I should also say though, the service you receive and the calls pilots make is also dependant on the business of the airport. On a crisp clear blue sky day with 4 circuit training and many PPRed and other visitors, and someone dedicated to A/G, then more radio calls from pilots improve safety I guess - there are times when I come back to the field at 5pm in winter knowing the A/G lady is hoovering, thats where blind calls and signal square/windsock come into play - but after all isn't that airmanship?
Also I think there is a huge different between those that learn/fly at large airports like Bristol/Gloucester and those pilots that have learnt/fly at small fields - it would be great if every pilot got some good experience in both environments before judging each.
And oh the absolute bad airmanship that we are all guilty of occasionally - when you are not multi-tasking but dedicated on the A/G and looking out the window, it can be like watching a massive free for all... I think they smell the cake and just have to be first to land... haha
Yes a 'AGCS radio station operator' is just one station above toilet cleaner - but although its 'not viewed by the UK as an Air Traffic Service' it is still a valuable service, with trained and examined 'operators' who can listen to a mayday & dial 999 (or D&D) when your day turns sour...
If anyone is around and feels like it they might answer it
Without your own certificate, duly signed by the OFCOM Listed responsible person for that field, you cannot even practice... yup thats the law (it is different in Maritime land)
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Originally Posted by GBEBZ
You can call up three times and tell me you are holding at the hold ready for departure, and you will still get the same reply, "Roger, wind is this and that" - if you are lucky and I can see beyond the glass I might also tell you there is one about to turn final.... but you should already know that as you were listening out... you can call me the forth time and you will get the same reply... I'm not going to give you a clearance or your discretion... it gets quite funny in the office after a while.... 4 times in my record...
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Hey it's great that we're getting some A/G operators commenting on here - thanks people! I like that the topic has strayed way off my original post - it's a fun discussion. However if anyone fancies responding to my original question about phraseology then please do :-)
Things this thread was supposed to be about
That actually is interesting to me - thanks! As an aside I wonder if the reason that CAP 413 seems clearer at defining phraseology for ATC compared with A/G is that the ATC procedures are handed down to CAA by ICAO whereas A/G is something CAA has to define for itself.
Things this thread was supposed to be about
- using CAP 413 as a student pilot to learn a correct core set of phraseology for A/G airfields (it might not be critical but we have to learn something, so it may as well be the right thing)
- questioning the role of A/G operators - I love you guys!
- the 'request traffic information' procedure for transiting an A/G ATZ (ok it's my fault we got into that, but it is well defined in CAP 413, and I found myself educating others about it rather than the other way around!)
- questioning the need for a radio check - personally I'll continue to do them as taught and as I find it helpful. I did have a question about phraseology for radio check though (see original post).
- the importance of lookout, aviating and navigating compared to communicating. Hehe do you really think I'd be indoors writing this if the weather was good enough for me to be in the sky practising my aviating and navigating? :-)
Interestingly, the original CAP 413 still exists as ICAO Doc 9432
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Hi TE
Have a look at CAP 453.. That has the guidance for A/G operators and as you will see it is a pretty minimal document.
Because of the enormous cost of providing an ATC service many fairly busy airfields prefer to hold on to an A/G service if they can.
You will find a huge variation in the type of calls depending on the airfield, varying from the seldom touched radio in the café at a quiet field to formal calls at larger sometimes multi runway fields where you may be sharing airspace with commercial traffic and the military.
Ask what to expect when you call for PPR. Once you understand what to expect you will be doing better than some professionals.
D.O.
Have a look at CAP 453.. That has the guidance for A/G operators and as you will see it is a pretty minimal document.
Because of the enormous cost of providing an ATC service many fairly busy airfields prefer to hold on to an A/G service if they can.
You will find a huge variation in the type of calls depending on the airfield, varying from the seldom touched radio in the café at a quiet field to formal calls at larger sometimes multi runway fields where you may be sharing airspace with commercial traffic and the military.
Ask what to expect when you call for PPR. Once you understand what to expect you will be doing better than some professionals.
D.O.
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let them know that, rather than letting them carry on in ignorance.
Things this thread was supposed to be about
using CAP 413 as a student pilot to learn a correct core set of phraseology for A/G airfields (it might not be critical but we have to learn something, so it may as well be the right thing)
using CAP 413 as a student pilot to learn a correct core set of phraseology for A/G airfields (it might not be critical but we have to learn something, so it may as well be the right thing)
Or actually introduce yourself in person to the A/G operator and ask if they will allow you to sit next to them for a shift and see exactly what goes on that end of the radio (that would be a good thing for most pilots to do and not just students!) - As long as you don't get in the way I don't think anyone would have an issue with that.
And lastly, you could even see if your local A/G field are looking for Volunteer Radio Operators, and self-pay your way through the one day course and exams, and actually be that person on the end of the radio
Also all these things dont just apply to A/G areas, there are also a lot of great/bad examples of phrases and chat that happen at other major airports as well.... google youtube for ATC conversations (All non-UK as our laws prohibit this) and enjoy the laughs...
I can understand where you're coming from in taking that approach, but if someone clearly doesn't understand the limitations of an A/G operator, surely it would be better to let them know that, rather than letting them carry on in ignorance. They could be a risk to the rest of us.
Where I fly from the A/G is generally intelligently operated. But when instructing I am careful never to refer to the building they operate from as "the Tower" (although it looks like a control tower). I usually say something like "that building over there"! On the very first lesson I impress upon students that all the A/G can do is provide information and that they are not licensed controllers and therefore cannot instruct us to do anything or indeed clear us to do anything. This is often a surprise to people who are new to flying.
I was flying with one student and as we flew downwind the voice on the A/G changed (shift change) he remarked "Ah change of controller!". I looked across at him and said "They are not controllers" and we had a recap on the debrief.
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Originally Posted by GBEBZ
Cant find official phraseology for that - haha - greater men than me have tried and failed to `educate` `ignorant` pilots - hahah
The pilot may well choose not to take up the offer, but they're unlikely to be as ill-prepared in future. Otherwise, they may leave under the mistaken impression that your service is not up to the standard they're used to.
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And thanks GBEBZ for your thoughts and ideas on improving RT.
I actually feel fine with my RT - this post wasn't really about any problems I was having. It's just that I now know about 3 different ways to say the same things and before I get any bad habits I wanted to use CAP 413 to choose a 'correct' set of stock vocab to be my standard phrases (which of course I know I may have to modify according to the situation). Now is the time that my habits will get formed, so they may as well be good ones!
Chaps, just my 2-penneth but if you've identified issues with CAP 413 or you have questions regarding the phraseology it contains, the front pages give an email address ([email protected] I think) for you to send your queries to. In my experience, the CAP 413 team always answer questions very quickly.
In terms of the people who write CAP 413, bear in mind that the contents of the CAP are determined by a working group which consists of CAA and industry - GA, commercial and MOD pilots, ATC (civilian and MOD) and FISOs. The CAA side of the group is made up of ATC and flight crew, many of whom also fly recreationally.
In terms of the people who write CAP 413, bear in mind that the contents of the CAP are determined by a working group which consists of CAA and industry - GA, commercial and MOD pilots, ATC (civilian and MOD) and FISOs. The CAA side of the group is made up of ATC and flight crew, many of whom also fly recreationally.
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Originally Posted by whowhenwhy
a working group which consists of CAA and industry - GA, commercial and MOD pilots, ATC (civilian and MOD) and FISOs
Enthusiast
As an instructor I am glad you are interested in being the best pilot you can be, however I would like to offer a word of caution.
Too many pilots drop the airplane to fly the microphone. In the appropriate airspace you can take off fly around and land without even having a radio in the airplane let alone talking on a radio. Do not assign an unwarranted importance to radio work. As a pilot the most important skill and knowledge you have is the ability and knowledge to make the aircraft go exactly where you want it to at any given moment in a flight.
My observation is that any discussion about the correct radio calls among UK pilots quickly dissolves into extremely pointless pedantry about the most trivial points (eg do you call final or do you call finals)
Sure as a student it is better to learn and follow the official documents as long as is not to the detriment of learning and studying the vital foundation knowledge areas of theory of flight, aircraft engines and systems, navigation theory, met and air regulations.
As an instructor I am glad you are interested in being the best pilot you can be, however I would like to offer a word of caution.
Too many pilots drop the airplane to fly the microphone. In the appropriate airspace you can take off fly around and land without even having a radio in the airplane let alone talking on a radio. Do not assign an unwarranted importance to radio work. As a pilot the most important skill and knowledge you have is the ability and knowledge to make the aircraft go exactly where you want it to at any given moment in a flight.
My observation is that any discussion about the correct radio calls among UK pilots quickly dissolves into extremely pointless pedantry about the most trivial points (eg do you call final or do you call finals)
Sure as a student it is better to learn and follow the official documents as long as is not to the detriment of learning and studying the vital foundation knowledge areas of theory of flight, aircraft engines and systems, navigation theory, met and air regulations.