What is the difference between licenced & unlicenced airfields?
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What is the difference between licenced & unlicenced airfields?
Being fairly new to this game, can somebody explain this to me?
For example, what goes on at an unlicenced airfield - can pilot training be undertaken from there, and if not, what CAN be done?
Also, can a PPL fly, (covered by his/her insurance), into an unlicenced airfield legally.
Plus anything else you may all know....
Thanks all
BMUS
For example, what goes on at an unlicenced airfield - can pilot training be undertaken from there, and if not, what CAN be done?
Also, can a PPL fly, (covered by his/her insurance), into an unlicenced airfield legally.
Plus anything else you may all know....
Thanks all
BMUS
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Ab initio training cannot be carried out at an unlicensed airfield - however, licence revalidation and advanced training (IMC etc.) can be done there. Therefore you cannot log a Nav trip to, say, Popham as part of your PPL, but if you get the PPL and then let it lapse you are no longer ab initio and could go to Popham for training.
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Evo7
No sure on a couple of points that you made.
I understood that the pilot has to hold a current & valid licence, rather than a lapsed one. Revalidation flights are probably allowed as they take place while the licence is still current. Training for an IMC rating is probably allowed, but training for the initial night rating (or whatever it is called under JAA) would not be allowed at an unlicensed field, as it would involve take off & landing after dark.
Perhaps a JAA instructor, could confirm or correct the above, please.
beammeupscottie
A pilot holding a current PPL, can fly into an unlicensed airfield (subject to consent of the airfield operator, of course, & most unlicensed fields are PPR)
If you own your own aircraft, then you need to read the insurance policy to see if it covers flights to unlicensed airfields.
If you are hiring from a club or school, then you need to ask first. Some schools require hirers to get permission from the CFI , before going to such fields. This is often a condition of the aircraft insurance. The reason for this is that "unlicensed airfield" includes everything from the superb KEMBLE, with its main hard runway of over 1800m, down to Farmer Giles' waterlogged grass strip of 350m. The CFI will take into account, the airfield, the performance of the aircraft, & the experience of the PPL hirer.
No sure on a couple of points that you made.
I understood that the pilot has to hold a current & valid licence, rather than a lapsed one. Revalidation flights are probably allowed as they take place while the licence is still current. Training for an IMC rating is probably allowed, but training for the initial night rating (or whatever it is called under JAA) would not be allowed at an unlicensed field, as it would involve take off & landing after dark.
Perhaps a JAA instructor, could confirm or correct the above, please.
beammeupscottie
A pilot holding a current PPL, can fly into an unlicensed airfield (subject to consent of the airfield operator, of course, & most unlicensed fields are PPR)
If you own your own aircraft, then you need to read the insurance policy to see if it covers flights to unlicensed airfields.
If you are hiring from a club or school, then you need to ask first. Some schools require hirers to get permission from the CFI , before going to such fields. This is often a condition of the aircraft insurance. The reason for this is that "unlicensed airfield" includes everything from the superb KEMBLE, with its main hard runway of over 1800m, down to Farmer Giles' waterlogged grass strip of 350m. The CFI will take into account, the airfield, the performance of the aircraft, & the experience of the PPL hirer.
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This link below is to the ANO - Article 101 is the relevant piece of legislation
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf
Evo7 got it just about right, I think. Basically, you can't do PPL, aircraft rating or Night rating training or tests. You need the CFI's permission to take one of my club aeroplanes to an unlicensed field and I think the Insurance excess is doubled.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf
Evo7 got it just about right, I think. Basically, you can't do PPL, aircraft rating or Night rating training or tests. You need the CFI's permission to take one of my club aeroplanes to an unlicensed field and I think the Insurance excess is doubled.
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A couple of points:
It may well be that you can't train for a night rating at an unlicenced airfield, but you can certainly use an unlicenced airfield for t/o and landing at night. I certainly do. It would be rather restrictive otherwise as some licenced airfields become unlicenced at night because it would be uneconomic to staff them all night.
I'm not sure about the insurance being limited to licenced airfields. I have never had an aircraft policy that restricted operation to licenced airfields and I have never been asked the question when filling in proposal forms. I don't know anyone who has their aircraft insurance limited to licenced airfields and I wonder if this is just used by some clubs as an excuse to say to their hirers that they don't want them to use unlicensed airfields. For example, I have been refused permission by one club to use ANY unlicenced airfield in their aircraft, even in a Cessna 152.
If anyone here actually has an aircraft policy that prohibits flying into unlicenced airfields I would appreciate them telling me the exact restriction and which insurance company they are with. I will then stand corrected, but at present I suspect it might just be a good story.
It may well be that you can't train for a night rating at an unlicenced airfield, but you can certainly use an unlicenced airfield for t/o and landing at night. I certainly do. It would be rather restrictive otherwise as some licenced airfields become unlicenced at night because it would be uneconomic to staff them all night.
I'm not sure about the insurance being limited to licenced airfields. I have never had an aircraft policy that restricted operation to licenced airfields and I have never been asked the question when filling in proposal forms. I don't know anyone who has their aircraft insurance limited to licenced airfields and I wonder if this is just used by some clubs as an excuse to say to their hirers that they don't want them to use unlicensed airfields. For example, I have been refused permission by one club to use ANY unlicenced airfield in their aircraft, even in a Cessna 152.
If anyone here actually has an aircraft policy that prohibits flying into unlicenced airfields I would appreciate them telling me the exact restriction and which insurance company they are with. I will then stand corrected, but at present I suspect it might just be a good story.
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QNH 1013
On the question of insurance of schools aircraft, I understand that the system seems to work as follows.
If the school has a Pilots Order Book (POB), that ensures that the school keeps the PPL hirers up to scratch, then the insurers take this into account when setting rates of premium (obviously the school's claims records is also taken into account)
Items that insurers like to see in the POB, is any new hirers have to pass a check ride with one of the schools instructors, before they are allowed to hire. And, of course, the relevant item here, that the CFI has to approve PPL hirers taking the school's aircraft into unlicensed fields.
I can understand insurers not being keen to insure a school that lets newly quilified PPLs, take aircraft into any unlicensed airfield that they fancy, without prior permission of the school.
I stand to be corrected on this one, but I understood that some policies may not have a ban on unlicensed fields, as such, but may only cover claims where the school's aircraft has been operated in accordence with the school's POB.
As aircraft insurance premium rates, after 9/11, increased by between 50 & 100%, I can understand schools trying to do everything that they can to reduce the possibility of claims. So some schools may now have a total ban on unlicensed fields.
On the question of insurance of schools aircraft, I understand that the system seems to work as follows.
If the school has a Pilots Order Book (POB), that ensures that the school keeps the PPL hirers up to scratch, then the insurers take this into account when setting rates of premium (obviously the school's claims records is also taken into account)
Items that insurers like to see in the POB, is any new hirers have to pass a check ride with one of the schools instructors, before they are allowed to hire. And, of course, the relevant item here, that the CFI has to approve PPL hirers taking the school's aircraft into unlicensed fields.
I can understand insurers not being keen to insure a school that lets newly quilified PPLs, take aircraft into any unlicensed airfield that they fancy, without prior permission of the school.
I stand to be corrected on this one, but I understood that some policies may not have a ban on unlicensed fields, as such, but may only cover claims where the school's aircraft has been operated in accordence with the school's POB.
As aircraft insurance premium rates, after 9/11, increased by between 50 & 100%, I can understand schools trying to do everything that they can to reduce the possibility of claims. So some schools may now have a total ban on unlicensed fields.
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D_B Many thanks for your answer.
That would suggest that it is a POB restriction and only indirectly an insurance restriction (comply with the POB).
I understand your comments re newly-qualified PPLs but this particular club had a blanket ban on unlicensed airfields irrespective of pilot.
My insurance quote went up by about 30% this year, and I am expecting premiums to fall next year.
That would suggest that it is a POB restriction and only indirectly an insurance restriction (comply with the POB).
I understand your comments re newly-qualified PPLs but this particular club had a blanket ban on unlicensed airfields irrespective of pilot.
My insurance quote went up by about 30% this year, and I am expecting premiums to fall next year.
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QNH 1013
Yes, a blanket ban on unlicensed fields does seem a bit unreasonable. I took a light twin into the unlicensed Kemble a few weeks ago, & that field, IMHO, seems much safer & better equiped than a lot of small licensed fields.
The school where I fly, uses the "prior consent of the CFI" method. In practice, this does work extremely well.
There are few constraints on regular hirers, who have flown for years & have hundreds of hours.
On the other hand it does require the newly-qualifieds to sit down with the Pooleys plate of the unlicensed field, then do a weight & balance sheet, & calculate the aircraft's performance (particularly if grass). I feel that this is useful exercise for that pilot, as he has to check that his plan is safe & realistic, before he can convince the CFI.
I would hope that premiums will fall again next year, so long as there are no similar 9/11 type occurances.
Yes, a blanket ban on unlicensed fields does seem a bit unreasonable. I took a light twin into the unlicensed Kemble a few weeks ago, & that field, IMHO, seems much safer & better equiped than a lot of small licensed fields.
The school where I fly, uses the "prior consent of the CFI" method. In practice, this does work extremely well.
There are few constraints on regular hirers, who have flown for years & have hundreds of hours.
On the other hand it does require the newly-qualifieds to sit down with the Pooleys plate of the unlicensed field, then do a weight & balance sheet, & calculate the aircraft's performance (particularly if grass). I feel that this is useful exercise for that pilot, as he has to check that his plan is safe & realistic, before he can convince the CFI.
I would hope that premiums will fall again next year, so long as there are no similar 9/11 type occurances.
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D_B
The system you describe at your school sounds a very sensible solution to me. I wish all schools showed this much common sense.
BMUS
Hope the above replies have been informative.
The system you describe at your school sounds a very sensible solution to me. I wish all schools showed this much common sense.
BMUS
Hope the above replies have been informative.
