buying a plane
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but why are there so few permit twins? ..... But even in the USA I can't think of many.
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But generally, there are few people with the inertia to build a multi engined aircraft. The practical need for feathering propellers dramatically drives up complexity and cost. By the time you can devote the effort to that task, you probably have lots of resources to just go and buy what you want. The CriCri is certainly an exception, as were the Lazair and CanAero Toucan.
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Ronny, I am definitely old enough to be your mother. And just like my 50 year old kids, you don't like anyone to rain on your parade.
BUT would you please answer one question. You say you drive around the dangerous roads of Europe with your entire family in the car.
How many hours, over your lifetime, have you driven a car?
And how many hours do you have in your flying logbook?
BUT would you please answer one question. You say you drive around the dangerous roads of Europe with your entire family in the car.
How many hours, over your lifetime, have you driven a car?
And how many hours do you have in your flying logbook?
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I am definitely old enough to be your mother. And just like my 50 year old kids, you don't like anyone to rain on your parade.
Ronny, please don't feel put down, no one here is out to rain on your parade, but some of us are suggesting a route we know well, where it is sunny a lot more of the time! The second last thing we want to do is to discourage a fellow aviator, this is a pastime of comradery. But the last thing we want to do is see you having an unhappy family event at all, let alone with a plane in the middle of it.
From time to time the subject of the whole family in a six seater comes up, and the answer is always the same from a group of us - it's nothing personal - we don't know you!
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Good morning Mary, Step Turn and all
Thank you so much for your ideas.
They all make sense.
I am with you on the family thing, indeed not the best idea
maybe more realistic : I would like to have a "real" four seater, enough to carry four adults and a decent load of fuel and luggage
Two options come in mind something like a Bonanza, Piper Matrix, Saratoga ...
Or a decent twin Cessna, Piper, Beech Baron, ...
Money of course is an issue. A Piper Meridian or TBM is indeed a dream but unfortunately financially not an option
Am trying to learn now. To hear from as many experienced aviators as possible
It s not easy
thank you all
Thank you so much for your ideas.
They all make sense.
I am with you on the family thing, indeed not the best idea
maybe more realistic : I would like to have a "real" four seater, enough to carry four adults and a decent load of fuel and luggage
Two options come in mind something like a Bonanza, Piper Matrix, Saratoga ...
Or a decent twin Cessna, Piper, Beech Baron, ...
Money of course is an issue. A Piper Meridian or TBM is indeed a dream but unfortunately financially not an option
Am trying to learn now. To hear from as many experienced aviators as possible
It s not easy
thank you all
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It's our pleasure Ronny, It is why we participate. No matter what you do in life, someone has probably gone before, and their advice has some merit...
Only you know what type will meet your mission needs, but the biggest mis step I see in this is the selection of an aircraft type for personal use which exceeds the need and budget. I see so many "bigger" planes just sitting derelict at airports, while the lower cost/capability aircraft get used.
Last week I was at a UK airport for a few days, musing about a twin Cessna which has evidently sat for a very long time, with a fellow who has sold his PA28, to buy a newer two place aircraft.
I own one two place and one three place aircraft. I can borrow any of several very capable four place Cessnas if I need one. My best advice (particularly for your first aircraft) ease in to ownerships with a good condition version of the lesser type that will meet your needs. You can trade up, if you got it wrong, but in the mean time, you get the ownership experience without the big shocks [of maintenance] along the way.
Twin Cessnas (310, 303, 337) are great planes, but they are being captured by structural inspections which can range from $50,000 to $100,000. The inspections are warranted. Twin Pipers (indeed all legacy low wing Pipers) are parts availability challenged. I suggest that upon considering the true "mission" you need to accomplish, you narrow down to a few similar capability types which will do it, and come back and ask for experience on those types, particularly maintenance cost experience.
We're always here to help...
Only you know what type will meet your mission needs, but the biggest mis step I see in this is the selection of an aircraft type for personal use which exceeds the need and budget. I see so many "bigger" planes just sitting derelict at airports, while the lower cost/capability aircraft get used.
Last week I was at a UK airport for a few days, musing about a twin Cessna which has evidently sat for a very long time, with a fellow who has sold his PA28, to buy a newer two place aircraft.
I own one two place and one three place aircraft. I can borrow any of several very capable four place Cessnas if I need one. My best advice (particularly for your first aircraft) ease in to ownerships with a good condition version of the lesser type that will meet your needs. You can trade up, if you got it wrong, but in the mean time, you get the ownership experience without the big shocks [of maintenance] along the way.
Twin Cessnas (310, 303, 337) are great planes, but they are being captured by structural inspections which can range from $50,000 to $100,000. The inspections are warranted. Twin Pipers (indeed all legacy low wing Pipers) are parts availability challenged. I suggest that upon considering the true "mission" you need to accomplish, you narrow down to a few similar capability types which will do it, and come back and ask for experience on those types, particularly maintenance cost experience.
We're always here to help...
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Buying a plane....buying a glider. Back to the original question. First aircraft I ever bought was a Pegasus glider, that was after doing a lot of cross country flying in K8's and K18. I didn't like the single seat Astir at Booker gliding club, wasn't comfortable in it, I just didn't fly it very well, it was heavy and quite different from the wooden gliders. The club then bought a couple of new Pegasus gliders, one fixed wheel, the other was retractable. WOW, what a difference! I was COMFORTABLE IN THE SEAT. And the performance, with a glide ratio of 40 to one, was excellent, the handling delightful, the airbrakes EXTREMELY effective, so I felt confident in landing out.
So, before deciding what airplane to buy, try to fly as many different types as you can arrange.
And be sure you are comfortable in the seat. Though I hope with pax you would think of their comfort and make a stop every 2 or 3 hours. (In the glider, the Peg, my longest flight in the UK was 8 hours and 53 minutes, I was busy the WHOLE TIME! flying 511 k in a competition.)
There are plenty of 4 seat aircraft for you to try out. Sit in them. Try out the back seats as well. ( You will have to be firm about luggage. Remember weight and balance really matter.)
Fly them. Check out the airfields near you, what will be the best place to keep it? Consider shares. Nobody sails a yacht 24/7. Mostly they sit around in marinas. So shares make sense.
Speaking as an old granny, I am trying to talk a friend of mine who owns an interesting aeroplane to take me with him for an excursion to Italy. The crunch time follows when I try to climb into the aircraft. And likewise, try to climb out, it ain't easy these days. Took three people to install me in the club Chipmunk, two to push and the pilot to pull. and I am NOT FAT. Just old.
So if you might actually take your mother up some day to fly over her house, this might be a factor....how easy for your family to climb on board?
All you experts reading this, is it possible/legal, for passengers to change seats in flight?
So, before deciding what airplane to buy, try to fly as many different types as you can arrange.
And be sure you are comfortable in the seat. Though I hope with pax you would think of their comfort and make a stop every 2 or 3 hours. (In the glider, the Peg, my longest flight in the UK was 8 hours and 53 minutes, I was busy the WHOLE TIME! flying 511 k in a competition.)
There are plenty of 4 seat aircraft for you to try out. Sit in them. Try out the back seats as well. ( You will have to be firm about luggage. Remember weight and balance really matter.)
Fly them. Check out the airfields near you, what will be the best place to keep it? Consider shares. Nobody sails a yacht 24/7. Mostly they sit around in marinas. So shares make sense.
Speaking as an old granny, I am trying to talk a friend of mine who owns an interesting aeroplane to take me with him for an excursion to Italy. The crunch time follows when I try to climb into the aircraft. And likewise, try to climb out, it ain't easy these days. Took three people to install me in the club Chipmunk, two to push and the pilot to pull. and I am NOT FAT. Just old.
So if you might actually take your mother up some day to fly over her house, this might be a factor....how easy for your family to climb on board?
All you experts reading this, is it possible/legal, for passengers to change seats in flight?
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Van
Always look at your mission profile and fit the aircraft to that profile not the other way around.
Your most precious cargo are your family and with you as the sole pilot I would seriously consider a Cirrus with its BRS? At least they stand a chance if anything serious happens.
Look at whether you need an all weather aircraft? Are your skills up to an all weather capability?
Look at anti ice/ deice ? very important even in the summer if you intend to fly airways.
More recent cirrus have that ability too.
so really look at your mission profile, your budget, your experience levels and then the aircraft to suit.
as some said it maybe better to rent than buy
Pace
Always look at your mission profile and fit the aircraft to that profile not the other way around.
Your most precious cargo are your family and with you as the sole pilot I would seriously consider a Cirrus with its BRS? At least they stand a chance if anything serious happens.
Look at whether you need an all weather aircraft? Are your skills up to an all weather capability?
Look at anti ice/ deice ? very important even in the summer if you intend to fly airways.
More recent cirrus have that ability too.
so really look at your mission profile, your budget, your experience levels and then the aircraft to suit.
as some said it maybe better to rent than buy
Pace
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I have flown a lot of trips in Europe, from Norway to North Africa and from Ireland to Czech Rep, Mostly for business but quite a bit with my family (parents and sisters when young, wife and children later, step-grandchildren now). The most important piece of safety equipment is the pilot who knows when to press the NO-GO button.
In all those years I have seen accidents happen all around me. One was a SET helicopter with the whole family and fiancé flying into HT wires after a Christmas family reunion. Another was a SET with father, daughter and grandchildren in a badly loaded P210.
BRS would not have saved any of those, nor would a second engine, but a well trained, disciplined pilot would.
I would seriously look at a Beech A36 that can be equipped with TKS and Turbonormalizer as the pilot experience and needs grow. My friend did just that, getting his IR on the A36, 4 years later he added a TN and oxygen, and later TKS. It is hard to find a better combination of comfort, speed, capability in a SEP. I have flown EBKT to EDSZ to LSZA and back to EBKT in a single day with extensive lunch at LSZA.
In all those years I have seen accidents happen all around me. One was a SET helicopter with the whole family and fiancé flying into HT wires after a Christmas family reunion. Another was a SET with father, daughter and grandchildren in a badly loaded P210.
BRS would not have saved any of those, nor would a second engine, but a well trained, disciplined pilot would.
I would seriously look at a Beech A36 that can be equipped with TKS and Turbonormalizer as the pilot experience and needs grow. My friend did just that, getting his IR on the A36, 4 years later he added a TN and oxygen, and later TKS. It is hard to find a better combination of comfort, speed, capability in a SEP. I have flown EBKT to EDSZ to LSZA and back to EBKT in a single day with extensive lunch at LSZA.
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When choosing a plane to own, there's more to think about than if you are just going to rent it. Maintenance becomes an important factor - if you cannot maintain it, you cannot fly it.
Personally, based upon a lot of experience, I'm leery of legacy Pipers from the ownership perspective. They're fine planes to fly, but not so easy to repair sometimes. I have been involved in the repair of several, which was painfully costly (compared to repair of the same damage on a Cessna) for lack of support from Piper, and lack of parts. I have been involved with other Pipers where my declaration that an economical repair was not possible, became the death blow for the airframe.
In one case, I spoke with a Piper tech rep in regard of a Seneca, to have her say to me: "Sir, that's a 40 year old plane, Piper hasn't seen it in 40 years, and we don't want it in the air any more" [so they would not provide primary airframe parts]. Those are scary words, when compared to Cessna, who provide ample structural repair information in the service manual, have many fewer proprietary parts, and will offer to make any part for just about any vintage Cessna you want - for a price.
Last week I was visiting a Piper operator in the UK, who mentioned frequent difficulties getting factory support for Pipers. I asked, just to continue my understanding, the information was free flowing - poor support. We were standing beside a simply damaged Saratoga at the time, and the repair quote is huge for that one. It would be "by the book" easy, were it a Cessna.
This is not a "knock the Piper, pump the Cessna" exercise, to fly them, they are both fine aircraft types. But, it is an apparent reality that ownership choices MUST include consideration of maintenance and repair opportunity, for long term utility and resale value.
Ask around a lot, before you select a type...
Personally, based upon a lot of experience, I'm leery of legacy Pipers from the ownership perspective. They're fine planes to fly, but not so easy to repair sometimes. I have been involved in the repair of several, which was painfully costly (compared to repair of the same damage on a Cessna) for lack of support from Piper, and lack of parts. I have been involved with other Pipers where my declaration that an economical repair was not possible, became the death blow for the airframe.
In one case, I spoke with a Piper tech rep in regard of a Seneca, to have her say to me: "Sir, that's a 40 year old plane, Piper hasn't seen it in 40 years, and we don't want it in the air any more" [so they would not provide primary airframe parts]. Those are scary words, when compared to Cessna, who provide ample structural repair information in the service manual, have many fewer proprietary parts, and will offer to make any part for just about any vintage Cessna you want - for a price.
Last week I was visiting a Piper operator in the UK, who mentioned frequent difficulties getting factory support for Pipers. I asked, just to continue my understanding, the information was free flowing - poor support. We were standing beside a simply damaged Saratoga at the time, and the repair quote is huge for that one. It would be "by the book" easy, were it a Cessna.
This is not a "knock the Piper, pump the Cessna" exercise, to fly them, they are both fine aircraft types. But, it is an apparent reality that ownership choices MUST include consideration of maintenance and repair opportunity, for long term utility and resale value.
Ask around a lot, before you select a type...
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Ask around a lot, before you select a type...
This is not a "knock the Piper, pump the Cessna" exercise, to fly them, they are both fine aircraft types. But, it is an apparent reality that ownership choices MUST include consideration of maintenance and repair opportunity, for long term utility and resale value.
Provided you do your homework either a second hand Piper or Cessna will serve you well, as will some other types.
So if you are still considering a MEP just ask yourself how you would feel about £20,000 bills for an annual, or a £70,000 bill when the engines need overhauling. And how about another £50,000 to fit some modern avionics, which will never work as well as those fitted in a newer aircraft because the autopilot is an old out of production model.
Engine costs can be budgeted for and life remaining is reflected in the purchase price.
Avionics upgrades can be pricey no matter whether it's for a SEP, SET, MEP or MET. Most older autopilots cope pretty well especially with GPSS which is pretty standard these days.
why would a twin be significantly more than a complex single?
