IMC revalidation and IPC in one go?

[Zonkor]

Has anybody experience with revalidating a UK IMC / IR(R) rating and completing an IPC (FAA instrument proficiency check) at the same time (both for SEP / ASEL airplanes)? Could you recommend an instructor / ATO please?

Thanks,

Michael

[ifitaintboeing]

I've conducted quite a few of these either as combined IR/IPC or IR(R)/IPC - it's within both sets of regulations since in both the EASA IR/IR(R) revalidation/renewal and the FAA IPC you are being asked to demonstrate proficiency in those tasks.

You will need someone with a UK-issued EASA Flight Examiner with IR(R) examining privileges who is also a current FAA CFI-I: there aren't many of us about.

ifitaint...

[sapperkenno]

You can forget about doing the IR(R) revalidation, as the IPC allows you to then go to the CAA and pay them for issuing an IR(R). They will issue an IR(R) based on passing a third party foreign IR skills test, or proficiency check. It doesn't work the other way round, so you can't do an IR(R) revalidation with an EASA FE, then get the same rights as having done an IPC. You would think that a current CFII who is also an EASA FE in the European theatre should know that, and suggest that option.
So it's just the CFII you need to find, and there are a few of us about. If you're in Northern UK, PM me, if not, keep looking.

Some are reasonable, charging circa £30/flying-hour (myself), there's even a guy down Cambridge way who doesn't charge, and others probably cost a bit more - especially EASA FEs, I would imagine. There are even a few jokers who want £325 day rates and suchlike.

[ifitaintboeing]

You can forget about doing the IR(R) revalidation, as the IPC allows you to then go to the CAA and pay them for issuing an IR(R). They will issue an IR(R) based on passing a third party foreign IR skills test, or proficiency check. It doesn't work the other way round, so you can't do an IR(R) revalidation with an EASA FE, then get the same rights as having done an IPC.

Completing a IPC then applying to the CAA on that basis does not necessarily get you a IMC rating. Rather than renew/revalidate a IMC rating, the CAA normally issue the pilot with an exemption under ANO Article 242 from the provisions of Article 68(1) in respect of the IMC rating if you hold a current IPC. The CAA charge for the issue of this exemption.

Reference for issue, revalidation or renewal on the basis of a current ICAO IR can be found at CAP 804, Section 5, Part E, page 5. However, as a current FE and CFI-I, there is no need for applicants to go through that process or pay anything to the CAA for IMC/IR(R) revalidation since a UK-issued EASA Flight Examiner can sign the Certificate of Revalidation upon completion of the test.

ifitaint...

[Zonkor]

You can forget about doing the IR(R) revalidation, as the IPC allows you to then go to the CAA and pay them for issuing an IR(R). They will issue an IR(R) based on passing a third party foreign IR skills test, or proficiency check. It doesn't work the other way round, so you can't do an IR(R) revalidation with an EASA FE, then get the same rights as having done an IPC. You would think that a current CFII who is also an EASA FE in the European theatre should know that, and suggest that option.

Interesting. I already hold a UK IMC / IR(R) rating (converted from my FAA IR). Are you saying that if I complete an FAA IPC, the CAA will issue me a new IR(R) again? Could you please give me a pointer to the EASA / CAA regs which permit that option?

Thanks,

Michael

[ifitaintboeing]

Reference for issue, revalidation or renewal on the basis of a current ICAO IR can be found at CAP 804, Section 5, Part E, page 5.

[Level Attitude]

Interesting. I already hold a UK IMC / IR(R) rating (converted from my FAA IR). Are you saying that if I complete an FAA IPC, the CAA will issue me a new IR(R) again? Could you please give me a pointer to the EASA / CAA regs which permit that option?

The CAA will issue an IMC/IR(R) on the basis of a foreign ICAO IR valid for 25 months from the date of the last IR Test - They do not recognize an FAA Instrument Proficiency Check as an IR Test so this would be useless (on its own) for obtaining or maintaining an IMC Rating.

[sapperkenno]

The CAA are rather confusing then, seeing as they issued me, and many others an IR(R) off the back of showing them evidence of an IPC. Maybe we all need to get a refund and hand them back?!

[Zonkor]

ifitaintboeing:

Are separate check flights needed for IPC and IR(R), or can these be merged into a single flight? I.e., can the IPC be given on the basis of a successfully completed IR(R) revalidation check flight (if the extra IPC items are covered as well)?

Also, can the FE / CFI-I that gives the check flight also do the check flight prep?

Thanks,

Michael

[ifitaintboeing]

To answer your second question first: for revalidation/renewal you can complete any training (test preparation) you need with me (or your chosen FE / CFI-I) before the IPC/IR(R) test. Ideally, it's tailored to the type of flying you are actually doing.

Renewal of your IR(R) and IPC can be completed in one flight for the reason given above, combining the content of both the test/check into one flight.

I should warn you: I'm not as cheap as sapperkeno

ifitaint...

[englishal]

The CAA will issue an IMC/IR(R) on the basis of a foreign ICAO IR valid for 25 months from the date of the last IR Test - They do not recognize an FAA Instrument Proficiency Check as an IR Test so this would be useless (on its own) for obtaining or maintaining an IMC Rating.

Incorrect I am afraid. I have held an FAA IR since 2002 and also an IMC /IR(R) since the same time. I always re-validate the IR(R) by sending evidence of the IPC to them (logbook and endorsement), filling in the CAA form and paying the fee for the issue of the rating.

[Zonkor]

Amazing, the variety of responses and experiences!

To be sure, I sent an inquiry to fclweb. I'll update you when I got a response.

[englishal]

I sent an inquiry to fclweb

You might be waiting some time then !

[Level Attitude]

The CAA will issue an IMC/IR(R) on the basis of a foreign ICAO IR valid for 25 months from the date of the last IR Test - They do not recognize an FAA Instrument Proficiency Check as an IR Test so this would be useless (on its own) for obtaining or maintaining an IMC Rating.

Incorrect I am afraid. I have held an FAA IR since 2002 and also an IMC /IR(R) since the same time. I always re-validate the IR(R) by sending evidence of the IPC to them (logbook and endorsement), filling in the CAA form and paying the fee for the issue of the rating.

Can an FAA IR be maintained(revalidated) by experience?

In which case I may have been confusing:
Test vs LPC
with
Test/LPC vs Revalidation

[englishal]

Yes you can revalidate the FAA IR by experience....essentially as long as you have met the requirements within the last 6 months then you are good to go. Go over 6 months and you have a further 6 months to meet those requirements in VFR conditions (i.e. using foggles etc. with safety pilot). After this 6 months they you REQUIRE and IPC before you are current again. IPC can only be done by an FAA CFII and you get a logbook endorsement.

What I do when I go to the USA is kind of combine an IPC / BFR for a bit of refresher training, then on my return to the UK reapply for the IR(R) based upon this IPC. Or if you happen to know a friendly FAA CFII in the UK of course they can do all of this too, and if you don't pay them then you don't need a DfT permit for your aeroplane (now CAA I think?).

The wording from the CAA is along the lines of:

If you hold a foreign IR then you are exempt from the ground study for the IR(R).
If you have had an IR test or revalidation (inc. IPC) within the last 24 month then you are exempt from the flight test for the IR(R).

You just fill our the rating application form (& fee) and send together with your FAA certificate and logbook showing the IPC flight and endorsement.

[Zonkor]

@englishal

The wording from the CAA is along the lines of:

If you hold a foreign IR then you are exempt from the ground study for the IR(R).
If you have had an IR test or revalidation (inc. IPC) within the last 24 month then you are exempt from the flight test for the IR(R).

Where did you find this wording?

Are you implying that even if you don't revalidate an existing IR(R) and thus let the IR(R) revalidation deadline pass, you can get a new IR(R) at any later time by completing an IPC for the FAA IR?

Thanks,

Michael

P.s.: Still waiting for a reply. Should currently take about 2 weeks from what I've been told.

[englishal]

Yes you are correct. You reapply for the IMCr (IRR) every time. If the IRR lapses, no big deal. If you do an IPC a year later, you can renew the IRR for another 2 years from that date.

PS the wording is on the IR(R) application form. You tick the box that says "ground exams exempt due to foreign IR" and "flight test exempt due to IR test" or something.

[englishal]

SRG1125: Instrument Meteorological Conditions Rating (Aeroplanes) Application

5. APPLICATION FOR EXEMPTION FROM COURSE OF TRAINING AND/OR TEST AND EXAMINATION (tick as appropriate)
I apply for exemption under the terms specified in the latest edition of LASORS from:
(i) The initial flight test and ground examination Omit Sections 6, 7 and 9
(ii) The course of instrument flying training Now move to Section 6
(iii) Ground examination Omit Section 7

Tick them all.

[sapperkenno]

I'm not as cheap as sapperkeno

You probably get what you pay for!