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Forced landing WITH power

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Forced landing WITH power

Old 15th Jan 2015, 15:13
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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A and C

The UK CAA has made it clear that it will not support a prosecution of a flying instructor under Rule 5 (500 ft rule) if the instructor is carrying out training of forced landings (with ot without power) as long as resonable care has been taken to not infringe rule 5.

This was as a result of a failed prosecution of a flying instructor who was carrying EAFTO training.

If that's the case I think it is, demolishing the prosecution witness accounts in cross-examination, demonstrating that they'd put their heads together to tell the same story and exposing their underlying nimby agenda was pure joy.

A barrister's opinion about whether a client is telling the truth is irrelevant but I had no doubt whatsoever that the FI didn't breach Rule 5, and I was delighted for him when he was acquitted.


FL

Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 15th Jan 2015 at 15:24.
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Old 15th Jan 2015, 15:44
  #42 (permalink)  
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Ms Meagre*: I'm very well aware of constant aspect approaches and how glider pilots do it (I was at LGS for 10+ years and have done my share of field landings) but we are not talking about "one shot" approaches in a glider. In this situation the pilot has decided that landing is necessary and still has power available, it is therefore appropriate to inspect the intended landing area before committing.
The situation is low cloud and poor viz. The first pass is made at a height that is above any pylons that may or may not be present.
It's easier to allow for drift if the "circuit" is square (yes, I know it would be possible to use hold timing techniques but that's a bit academic for this situation) but if viz is reasonable it's far better to keep the strip in sight, and for this an oval circuit would be preferable.

Pace: the training is for a hypothetical situation. The method works. The reason for looking for landmarks on the first pass is to help orientation during the inspection or landing.

Great to see a healthy discussion.

UPDATED: to say that my thread starter seems to have lost an intended link, here it is: precautionary landing procedure

HFD
* nothing meant by that, but you played with my "name" so I thought I'd play with yours
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Old 16th Jan 2015, 08:17
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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HFD, you are a very naughty boy!

I apologise for mistyping your handle, the only reason I use my true name (that you are mangling) is I pushed the wrong button when enrolling on this website. All these new fangled devices...didn't even have a computer until 2007. Sadly took my old Olympia typewriter to OXFAM this summer....it worked perfectly for more than 50 years. Had to shell out for a new printer, and it wouldn't talk to my applemac. At PC World they said it was my fault. That my applemac was 5 years old and out of date!
They didn't want the printer back because I had already put ink in it! (After I discussed the salesperson's attitude with the manager they gave me my choice of compatible printers.)

I have the same attitude toward aircraft. Give me a type that has been flying since 1934, and proving itself in every way on every continent. The Piper Cub, amended over the centuries and still unbeatable for hauling gliders out of fields.
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Old 16th Jan 2015, 10:08
  #44 (permalink)  
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A quick note to expand my earlier point about about why to use square circuits if the viz is poor and headings/timings are needed - drift correction is the reason.

If the wind strength is known/estimated, and the intended landing is into wind (which it should be) then the heading adjustment on the base/xwind legs can be fairly accurately guesstimated using Max Drift and applied (without sums) just by looking at the DI.

For this purpose MD is near enough to <windspeed x 60 / IAS>, which in bad viz config is going to be about 2/3 of the windspeed. Therefore, if the windspeed is 15kt (and you're flying a Left hand "circuit") turn to put the landing direction 10 degrees in front of the right wing on crosswind leg and 10 degrees in front of the left wing on base leg. This is difficult in words but a picture makes it obvious so, if it doesn't click, do yourself a sketch.

HFD

(Mary: I remember your articles in S&G during the early 80s.)
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Old 16th Jan 2015, 10:35
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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If that's the case I think it is, demolishing the prosecution witness accounts in cross-examination, demonstrating that they'd put their heads together to tell the same story and exposing their underlying nimby agenda was pure joy
Apologies for posting out thread context but I would have happily bought a ticket to see that!

Don't suppose you could do the same job on the 'aviation experts' which appear on TV interviews providing accident analysis within minutes of a reported accident?
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Old 16th Jan 2015, 11:23
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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HFD

This is the whole point that no off field landings are the same, no weather situations are the same and what works for one set of conditions won't work on another.

It might in deed be the case that you land with a tail wind or crosswind in extreme situations and its a better bet to take out a hedge or remove the nose wheel than fall to the ground or impact trees

Remember too that once on the ground you still have control! How many pilots sit there feet on the brakes in a straight line as passengers into whatever? You still have control options to avoid once on the ground

you must always have a plan but be able to change that plan to suit the situation.

There will be times when you can inspect the surface and obstacles and set up a nice pattern but there also maybe times when you are flying in very poor visibility and a suitable field appears on the nose you knowing that to continue might mean that the field vanishes under mist and cloud and also knowing for whatever reason you have to get on the ground.

The obvious is to take to the clouds, fly IMC to the MSA and get help but real world and differing situations don't always work to plan so always have plan A B C and D because it when you have no plans that your finished.

Yes there will be a risk but at this stage you have to decide the greater risk and live with the consequences of your decision
The worst situation is to be acting on blind panic impulse with no plan and no control because NO control of yourself or the aircraft will lead to Loss of control of yourself and the aircraft with fatal results

pace

Last edited by Pace; 16th Jan 2015 at 11:45.
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Old 16th Jan 2015, 14:11
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Flying lawyer / Ridger

I sat through the two days of it !

Day one I had a trainee magistrate sitting beside me, the lady was a bit shocked to find out I was a friend of the guy in the dock, and even more shocked when I said that the defendant was being done up like a kipper by the nimby's with the ill advised help of the CAA.

By the end of day one it had become apparent that this was the case.

By the end of day two we had the prosecution witness who could not tell if the aircraft that was allegedly nearer than 500 ft to him was high or low winged !

The Defence barrister was first class and no doubt several rungs above the leagal advocates normaly seen in the Beaconsfield magistrates court, it was a joy to see the CAA case slowly pulled apart and exposed for the anti airfield conspiracy that it was.

The whole thing left the CAA looking particularly spineless , it was clear that they had only backed the very vocal Nimbys to get a quiet life thinking a pennyless flying instructor would roll over and take a small fine, what they got was a leagal tour de force that left them wiping a considerable amount of egg from their faces.
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Old 16th Jan 2015, 15:28
  #48 (permalink)  
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Pace:
The situations that you mention put the outcome in the hands of fate; specially "taking to the clouds" if the pilot hasn't had the training so to do. People need to be trained to make the decision before it becomes an emergency "must land anywhere in any direction" situation, that's partly what Precautionary Landing training and practice is all about.
In bad viz the timing/heading/landmark system works - I haven't had to do it for real (superior aviator uses ... etcetera) but have demo'd and sat through stude practice many times, when possible in relatively grotty conditions.

I completely agree that flexibility is important, and also the need for a plan - hence the Precautionary Landing training. Also, 'tis far better to exercise Captaincy and superior judgement to avoid situations ... etcetera, etcetera.

HFD
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Old 16th Jan 2015, 17:37
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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HFD, me old china, you being a Lashamite and I presume a gliding instructor? if so Lasham being the enormous field that it is, presents a problem. You can land that glider/tug/DC3 ANYWHERE, with all that field spread around in front and in back of you! It's too easy!

A lot of clubs we fly gliders from offer a much greater possibility of nowhere to go... think of Parham - of Talgarth, even of Aboyne, or Feshiebridge, or for that matter, the Mynd has got some pretty bumpy bits.

Your prescription for numbers, etc, has only fried my brain, I don't compute numbers at all, and I bet plenty of other student pilots would have the same difficulty. Some can navigate, some are born without that skill. Some can do your charts and your analysis, and others find it simpler to just say THAT angle looks OK, or we need to get closer in, or further out. PULeeze, don't be so rigid....o how I wish I could still fly with you and give you a hard time at shenners...

You mention in your last post that you havn't done it for real? Well, only in gliders, I have done it a fair bit. Had to change the plan when horses were observed. Or the field sloped the wrong way. Or I chose the wrong crop (maize instead of barley....) And the first time I ever landed out was trying to get from Booker to Lasham for the 50 k in a K8 glider....the farmer arrived with a shotgun...but was very helpful, not hostile. I arranged for a tug to land in that field, which was full of flints....arrgh! and got told off at Lasham for a terrible circuit. Doing it for real does a LOT for your self confidence, that's for sure.

I much prefer the BGA instructor syllabus, with the S's. Size, surface, slope. We remind the student that he can judge the wind strength and direction by his drift over the ground. But spare us the numbers and percentages, I don't think it helps those of us who have a hard time dealing with numbers. If I had to try to remember your advice, I would be hung up on the details, not the actual approach and landing.
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Old 16th Jan 2015, 19:32
  #50 (permalink)  
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Mary: once again, we're talking about Precautionary Landings in a powered aircraft where there is an opportunity to inspect the intended landing area before committing to a landing. We are not talking about field landing in a glider, which is a one shot affair (as I found to my cost when I caught a tip on the stubble in a Pik20D many years ago )

Regarding MaxDrift (and MDR) calcs - I would hope that all or most PPLs who were trained in this country would be familiar with the simple sums needed to estimate drift (and groundspeed) when they learned how to fly accurate diversions. Likewise constant aspect approaches for PFLs, but I'm risking going off at a tangent. There must be loads of info on t'web about MaxDrift, MDR and Constant Aspect but we could start a thread on them if that would be useful.

HFD

(FWIW I stopped being a gliding instructor about 25 years ago, having first gone solo about 43 years ago (there were some big gaps!). Everything I've discussed in this thread has related to powered aircraft.
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Old 16th Jan 2015, 19:37
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Also, 'tis far better to exercise Captaincy and superior judgement to avoid situations ... etcetera, etcetera.
HFD

I totally agree with your above statement but sadly people are very imperfect creatures and do get into bad situations otherwise accidents like this would not occur so we are not talking about Mr/Miss perfect Captain with superior judgements but how best to get out of a mess you have got into preferably still alive.

i Think I am a realist and while theories are a great tool to add to an array of tools at your disposal like feet none fit every size of shoe

Sadly that is reality

Pace
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Old 17th Jan 2015, 09:02
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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HFD

Having done a bit of flying instruction over the last twenty years I think your faith in the ability of pilots to do mental arithmetic while under the considerable pressure is a little wide of the mark.

There are to types of people flying, those who can very quickly do the math because of an ( shall we call it ) intellectual education and those who think in pictures or diagrams who have had a more practical education.

Both types have the mental capacity to do the calculations in normal flight however when the pressure is really on those with the practical education are the ones who adapt best a changing situation such as wind gradient because they are constantly updating the mental plot from the visual picture.

Those who use the maths and then expect it all to work are slower to adapt to changes.

There are pilots who can do both but these are usualy found flying fast jets for the military and not at flying clubs.
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Old 17th Jan 2015, 11:59
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Having done a bit of flying instruction over the last twenty years I think your faith in the ability of pilots to do mental arithmetic while under the considerable pressure is a little wide of the mark.

There are to types of people flying, those who can very quickly do the math because of an ( shall we call it ) intellectual education and those who think in pictures or diagrams who have had a more practical education.

Both types have the mental capacity to do the calculations in normal flight however when the pressure is really on those with the practical education are the ones who adapt best a changing situation such as wind gradient because they are constantly updating the mental plot from the visual picture.

Those who use the maths and then expect it all to work are slower to adapt to changes.

There are pilots who can do both but these are usualy found flying fast jets for the military and not at flying clubs.
I am one of those that is hopeless at doing mental calculations. I managed maths whilst doing an engineering degree, so I cant be too stupid. But in my head, forget it. This is one thing that worries me about doing my PPL nav's.
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Old 17th Jan 2015, 12:41
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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In any landing (forced, precaution or regular) don't leave sight of your target field. No calculations are necessary if you simply keep a visual.
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Old 17th Jan 2015, 14:06
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Both types have the mental capacity to do the calculations in normal flight however when the pressure is really on those with the practical education are the ones who adapt best a changing situation such as wind gradient because they are constantly updating the mental plot from the visual picture.
A & C

I totally agree and to confirm that I will refer to a pilot I knew who was meticulous and ultra detailed in his pre planning, calculations and organisation.

His checks took forever no item rushed or missed but his brain although he was an extremely intelligent guy was one speed.
All was fine until one IMC flight when his destination and alternatives all went down.

He was left with no plans no details and having to work out things on the hoof with his one speed brain. Sadly a different speed and natural spatial awareness was required and he quickly got into a situation where he could not cope.

Thankfully he was assisted to a safe landing by ATC but shortly after packed flying in.

Plans go out the window and then you are left with your own ability to adjust to different circumstances. To me a good pilot will be planned and organised but still have he ability to multi task, always have good spatial awareness and the visual mental capacity to pick up or slow down his game at will.

The good pilot will always be assessing changing circumstances and situations and adjusting accordingly and will always be mentally ahead of the aircraft. He will already have a plan B in mind if plan A isn't working and will have the spatial awareness and capacity to change from one plan to the other at will and those plans will be in his mind not on a fly by numbers sheet of paper or tablet computer))

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 17th Jan 2015 at 14:43.
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Old 17th Jan 2015, 15:15
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Plans go out the window and then you are left with your own ability to adjust to different circumstances.
In those circumstances - IMC, destination and alternates down - my first level of fallback would be to be
assisted to a safe landing by ATC
So it sounds like that all went according to plan, actually?
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Old 17th Jan 2015, 17:05
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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GW
So it sounds like that all went according to plan, actually?
Accept that the experience of not having a plan or feeling in control scared him so much that he packed it in (( and I did know the guy and did try to dissuade him.
Getting ATC to help was a valid decision but its whats in someones mind and the fact that he no longer felt that he was in control ( although he was ) panicked him. I think by the time he had contacted ATC He was already panicked and that state lasted all the way to touchdown (sadly)
so what I am saying is you need to be bullet proof all round know your weaknesses and strengths and be aware and work on the weaker sides of your flying we all have them

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 17th Jan 2015 at 19:23.
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Old 19th Jan 2015, 15:47
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Pirke makes a good point, imho.

Keep it visual; this obviates the need for brain capacity draining, expansive calculation at a time of potential great stress.
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