Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Landing at closed aerodromes

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Landing at closed aerodromes

Old 1st Jan 2015, 15:19
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: York
Age: 49
Posts: 759
I'm not so sure about that FlyByMike

Locally to me two airfields have gone unlicensed the only reason they were licensed was so they could over flight training. Nothing has changed apart from these airfields are now more cost effective than before.

Two other airfields local to me now offer flight training now that the requirement for a licensed airfield was dropped.

Now from a general aviation point of view that has to be a good thing.
Mickey Kaye is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 15:36
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,118
Trouble is that compulsorily icensed airfield A probably can't compete on costs with unlicensed airfield B, for retaining flying schools.
Granted there are obvious advantages with no requirement for licensing, but the associated dangers also need to be recognised and monitored.
flybymike is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 16:14
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: UK
Age: 52
Posts: 73
I was picked up by a relative at Cranfield, had a nice day flying, and when we returned were a little surprised to be told by ATC the airfield would be closed by the time we got there. So we returned to his home base at Southend, and drove back

I went back to the tower the next day to pay the landing fees for the morning and was chatting to the guys about the opening times. They explained the airport used to be 'fully open' from 9 to 5 with atc and fire/fuel/coffee etc, and 'a bit open' out of hours, with just some empty concrete to land and park on, mainly used by the planes based there.

The owners had changed that to either "very open" or "very closed". the word insurance was mentioned.

I guess other airfields are in the same situation. If you let someone use your runway and they mess it up, and you weren't there to guide them, and mop up, it's your problem, not the pilots.
Interested Passenger is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 16:42
  #44 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 12,569
I guess other airfields are in the same situation. If you let someone use your runway and they mess it up, and you weren't there to guide them, and mop up, it's your problem, not the pilots.
Someone landing at a private strip without permission could also put the owner in breach of the 28 day rule.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 17:08
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Swindon, Wiltshire
Age: 44
Posts: 862
Originally Posted by Whopity View Post
A Closure notice is a fair indication that the operator is not satisfied in accordance with Para (1) Therefore; a Commander, should not take off or land there.
Is this in response to me questioning the fact that you implied I broke the law by logging trips to farm strips during my training? If so, what has it got to do with anything - we're not talking about closed airfields, we're talking about unlicensed ones. Even the original poster wasn't talking about this, he was talking about a trip to Sywell which was NOTAMmed as unlicensed, not closed.

Prior to the relaxation of the rules, the ANO specifically stated that flights for the purpose of training for a licence or rating were confined to Licensed Aerodromes. Whilst flights into farm strips had "training value" they could not be logged as part of the experience required for the issue of a licence.
Well, exactly. My flights were post rule relaxation! So what did I do wrong?

Anyone who has made a licence application based on the use of aerodromes where training was illegal could be subject to prosecution under the Act!
So I still need a citation that shows it was illegal to use a farm strip during my training. We're just going around in circles here. You've pointed out the situations of a closed airfield, and training at an unlicensed aerodrome prior to the rule relaxation. Neither of which are relevant!
stevelup is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 17:27
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 946
Ye Gods I sometimes despair of the human race a closed airfield is like a closed retail store, garage, theatre. It means that it is not accessible without specific negotiation with the owner.

An unlicensed airfield is just an airfield which can't be used by any operator that requires a licensed airfield. Private flights and training flights in a light aircraft are highly unlikely to need a licensed airfield since the requirement for training to take place from licensed airfields was removed in 2010. Even before then flights with instructors could include unlicensed and even foreign airfields!
Johnm is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 18:54
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Surrey
Posts: 10
On my QXC 2013 I was on my second land out downwind at Goodwood when I was asked to confirm that I was the student on QXC and then informed that I could no longer land as the airfield had become unlicensed (the fire engine had gone tech).
Not what I wanted to hear.
Cheers
John
JSAG is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 18:59
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 602
I could no longer land as the airfield had become unlicensed
Presuming that when you checked just prior to flight that the airport was available for you to use, this certainly seems to me to be a silly situation to put you in. If you had flight planned that destination, and in particular were it to be your fuel stop, the airport authority would look pretty silly if you thereafter had a problem related to a diversion caused by their officialdom! Something of a sad commentary on the UK I suppose. I have never heard of anything similar in Canada. The only occasion I have heard of an aerodrome becoming unusable for aircraft enroute, would be in the case of a weather deterioration, or a crash, which obstructs the runway. Other than that, one would hope that some more broad judgement could prevail....
9 lives is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 20:13
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 373
I cannot get my head around the way things are done in Britain.

Is it the case that a pilot on a training flight cannot land at an airport that does not have a fire engine?

Is it any different if the flight is just a regular private (non-training) flight?
On Track is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 20:22
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Swindon, Wiltshire
Age: 44
Posts: 862
No, there is absolutely no need for a fire engine, and it's perfectly OK to land at an unlicensed strip on a training flight with the owners permission and if the instructor is satisfied that the risk is acceptable.

I don't know the specific rules, but I wouldn't have thought this was a good idea (or permitted) for a solo student though

For a non-training flight, you can do whatever you want. Land in a farmer's field if you wish!
stevelup is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 20:27
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 80
Posts: 1,436
I don't believe fire cover is required since 2010 when it became possible to train at unlicensed airfields.
Perhaps the scenario described could be clarified by CAA?
As for normal non training flight, I would be in deep trouble as would a few others flying into unmanned farm strips if fire engines were required.
Perhaps a case of gold plating a non existing any longer rule.
Crash one is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 20:56
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 13,725
Perhaps the scenario described could be clarified by CAA?
Really, please, don't ask them. Whatever the answer will be, it won't be as good as the present sensible ambiguity and instructor-discretion.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2015, 23:02
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,118
I suspect they wouldn't give an answer, and like all organs of government would simply refer you to the relevant legislation and effectively place the onus on the pilot/instructor to interpret it and make a decision.

That way, contentious or incorrect answers are avoided and all possible future courses of action left open.
flybymike is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 11:54
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: EU
Posts: 611
I once flew into an airfield in Norfolk. I'm pretty thorough (or so I thought) with the preflight, nothing was amiss and PPR not required. Off I went.

Landed and it was like I had landed on Mars. Not a soul about. Nothing in the NOTAMs, on their website or the Pooleys flight guide to suggest they were closed.

I think somebody else also made that mistake as I found a note attached to the clubhouse doors left by a pilot a few hours earlier asking where everybody was!
pudoc is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 12:36
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 368
If an airfield is closed, it becomes a field (and obviously unlicensed).

In the UK, you can land anywhere provided you have permission of the landowner. Therefore all you need is the permission of the owner.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 14:48
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,361
"a closed airfield is like a closed retail store, garage, theatre. It means that it is not accessible without specific negotiation with the owner."

NO. A "closed airfield" in the uk means whatever the operator wants it to. It is common for an airfield to be closed - no fuel, no food, no maintenance, no office to pay landing fee, but you can fly with prior permission. All a pilot has to do is check what the operator had in mind by using the word closed, not a big issue.

Rod1
Rod1 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 15:37
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,051
The last two posts and indeed the one that Rod 1 quotes are all saying the correct situation but much the same thing as many others are saying, just with different emphasis, so can we stop arguing about the small nuances!
foxmoth is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 15:55
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 602
so can we stop arguing about the small nuances!
Indeed. Pilots could think of this from the other side, having landed on a runway, and being challenged by a person in authority, what would you tell them constituted your permission to land? Aside from an airport which is publicly presented as being "open", you're could to have to show how you had the land owner's permission. How will you do that?

In 38 years of flying, I have only once been so challenged. I landed on a nice grass runway, from which years earlier, I had flown the 172 based there. Since, the runway had been sold, and made truly private. I was politely asked to not return, and I never have.

If pilots are going to "explore" these opportunities, it would be wise to be well familiar with any insurance limitations which might apply to where you land the plane. Some policies will state runways which are "open" only. You'd not want to have an oops on a closed runway (without very good cause), to then find out that the aircraft insurance will not pay for the damage - or recovery! That is not a good example of begging forgiveness rather than permission, that answer may be a cold "No"!
9 lives is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 18:33
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 946
"a closed airfield is like a closed retail store, garage, theatre. It means that it is not accessible without specific negotiation with the owner."

NO. A "closed airfield" in the uk means whatever the operator wants it to. It is common for an airfield to be closed - no fuel, no food, no maintenance, no office to pay landing fee, but you can fly with prior permission. All a pilot has to do is check what the operator had in mind by using the word closed, not a big issue.

Rod1
astonishing as it may seem to those with English as a second language, Rod1 and I are saying much the same thing. If the airfield, store, garage etc. is stated to be closed and you are able to contact the owner or someone in authority over the premises, you may be able to persuade them to let you in, otherwise you don't go
Johnm is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 20:09
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Enzed
Posts: 2,224
It is common for an airfield to be closed - no fuel, no food, no maintenance, no office to pay landing fee
How does the lack of any of the above items close an airfield?

A large proportion of airfields over here don't have any of those things. If a landing fee is to be paid you put your money in the slot in the wall.

I once flew into an airfield in Norfolk. I'm pretty thorough (or so I thought) with the preflight, nothing was amiss and PPR not required. Off I went.

Landed and it was like I had landed on Mars. Not a soul about. Nothing in the NOTAMs, on their website or the Pooleys flight guide to suggest they were closed.

I think somebody else also made that mistake as I found a note attached to the clubhouse doors left by a pilot a few hours earlier asking where everybody was!
A pretty common occurrence where I fly.
27/09 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.