Combined Traffic Advisory Frequency in Highlands
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Funnily enough, Nik doesn't actually propose it as a way for GA and military to avoid each other.
As I read it, he is proposing it as a way for GA (rotary and fixed wing) to avoid each other - and an RAF bod has been asked to look at mil input.
Seems a damn good idea to me - but would say not much use on safety.com
Airfields like us use safety.com - saves fees to Ofcom! - and we already have a problem with pilots from here (it is alleged) not using the Strathaven airfield name when making the call, thus causing much head rotating at Bute.
So more safety.com traffic not a good idea - but a dedicated frequency (there must be lots spare now Ofcom is charging so as to make sure we all surrender little-used frequencies!) would be the answer.
Finally, I don't care who or why or what is behind the idea - if it is a good'un let's get it happening.
As I read it, he is proposing it as a way for GA (rotary and fixed wing) to avoid each other - and an RAF bod has been asked to look at mil input.
Seems a damn good idea to me - but would say not much use on safety.com
Airfields like us use safety.com - saves fees to Ofcom! - and we already have a problem with pilots from here (it is alleged) not using the Strathaven airfield name when making the call, thus causing much head rotating at Bute.
So more safety.com traffic not a good idea - but a dedicated frequency (there must be lots spare now Ofcom is charging so as to make sure we all surrender little-used frequencies!) would be the answer.
Finally, I don't care who or why or what is behind the idea - if it is a good'un let's get it happening.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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GBS:
I think you misunderstand the purpose of that piece of airspace. It is specifically for low flying in IMC. Because the crews carrying out this training are not necessarily in a position to look out the window, this traffic needs segregation. But it is segregated from military VFR low level traffic as well as civil. This means that normal VFR low level military flights around north west Scotland during the times when R610A is active will all be found outside it, not inside it.
NS
Maybe if we could have that big chunk of restricted military airspace (Mon-Thur after 3pm) at the top of Scotland back then we'd be less likely to bump into each other - hardly used
Galling bit is - as you do your best to avoid it, the hills and the weather - the mil go screaming past you ..... outside of it !!
Galling bit is - as you do your best to avoid it, the hills and the weather - the mil go screaming past you ..... outside of it !!
NS
Er I think 123.4 is spare at the moment, but I didn't tell you that, OK?
2 s
Thread Starter
That works pretty well but the areas are fairly small - from memory 40-ish miles.
If there were a civi CTAF, would the jets monitor it, and, if they did, would the pilot have the spare brain capacity to comprehend the type of position report I could send? Not a rhetorical question - some guys could answer it.
What is the form of their location awareness?
Perhaps an update to the NOTAM system would be the answer for underslung load work, allowing faster input/cancellation of NOTAMS, which are upgraded in flight on my Android.
I think you misunderstand the purpose of that piece of airspace.
This is a very, very large part of Scotland unavailable for long periods of time and it, very often, has no aircraft in it. I have asked on several occasions to enter by talking to the military direct but the answer is ALWAYS no - no effort made on flexibility. So north of Fort William is a big no fly zone for large parts of the day.
I can understand routes for the IMC stuff but to take the whole lot ???
GSB
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I know, you're absolutely right. It was created in 1981 when the RAF was building up to hundreds of Tornado GR.1s and the USAF had 160 F-111s based in the UK. All of these had the capability for automatic terrain-following flight at low level and all of them spent virtually all of their flight time at low level. Even then, R610A was rarely busy. Nowadays we have a tiny fraction of that fleet and a tiny fraction of their flight time is at low level.
Also of interest to note that R610A is the only piece of airspace in Europe where low flying in IMC is permitted. You wonder how Italian and German Tornados managed, since they never used it.
We hear a lot these days about "Flexible Use of Airspace". But it has never been applied to R610A. It could be activated by NOTAM only.
Of course that would mean that, when it's not NOTAMed active, all the military VFRs would pile into the area as well as you GA types......
Also of interest to note that R610A is the only piece of airspace in Europe where low flying in IMC is permitted. You wonder how Italian and German Tornados managed, since they never used it.
We hear a lot these days about "Flexible Use of Airspace". But it has never been applied to R610A. It could be activated by NOTAM only.
Of course that would mean that, when it's not NOTAMed active, all the military VFRs would pile into the area as well as you GA types......
Hi NS,
Many thanks once again.
Yeh, I spent 6 months outdoors on Skye this year and I never saw an aircraft in 610B - I did see one MIL jet in that period over the island but he was below the 750 feet. I understand 610B was the entry/exit from 610A for the low level guys?
In the summer it's as shame to have to stop flying an hour or so before 3pm (to clear the area) - biggest pain is if the weather is bad in the morning you need to cancel as you can't just re-plan for the afternoon.
I'll keep trying with guys at the other end of the HRA phone number.
PS I'm very much a big sky man as far as separation is concerned - be good when the MIL get transponders though and we can let TCAS do its job.
Best
Many thanks once again.
Yeh, I spent 6 months outdoors on Skye this year and I never saw an aircraft in 610B - I did see one MIL jet in that period over the island but he was below the 750 feet. I understand 610B was the entry/exit from 610A for the low level guys?
In the summer it's as shame to have to stop flying an hour or so before 3pm (to clear the area) - biggest pain is if the weather is bad in the morning you need to cancel as you can't just re-plan for the afternoon.
I'll keep trying with guys at the other end of the HRA phone number.
PS I'm very much a big sky man as far as separation is concerned - be good when the MIL get transponders though and we can let TCAS do its job.
Best
Avoid imitations
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During the Cold War times in Germany we operated on "Corps Common" frequency of 255.1 whilst flying at low level. It was available for airmanship calls, such as transmitting a choke point. It worked well but wasn't a full answer to the problem. It was easy for terrain masking to occur.
Thread Starter
Latest - it's being tried.
VHF LOW-LEVEL COMMON FREQUENCY TRIAL
1. In conjunction with the CAA, thefollowing protocol will be trialled as a VHF Low-Level Common frequency.
VHF LOW-LEVEL COMMONFREQUENCY
‘VHF LL-Common’is being trialled as an information service on the VHF Frequency 135.475 MHz inorder to improve the situational awareness amongst, and aid deconflictionbetween, military and civilian aircraft operating in the same area. It is available for use by all aircrewoperating at or below 2000’ AGL in the UK Low Flying System whenoperating north of LatitudeN56·00°.
Aircrewshould apply their airmanship when considering the timing and content of theirtransmissions. The following is offeredas guidance:
Timing
· When safe and suitable to do so
· When operating north of Latitude N56·00°.
· At turning points or significantheading changes
· Approaching well-known and recognisablephysical features
· Any time it is considered beneficial tothe safety of the aircraft (such as approaching choke points or knownareas of high traffic density).
Content
· Ac callsign
· Ac type (and number, in the case offormations)
· Position in relation to reference pointsimmediately identifiable to other pilots (using cardinal or inter-cardinaldirections)
· Height
· Heading
· Next significant reference point
Exampletransmission:
“Spartan, Tornado, 8nm NE of Inverness,250’, heading 170° towards Aviemore"
“Python formation, 2 Hawks, 5 miles N of Perth,250', heading East towards Montrose”
Notes:
· Using this frequency should not takepriority over obtaining a Lower Airspace Radar Service.
· Transmissions should be kept short,simple and effective, and should not clog up the frequency.
· If you do not hear any transmissions,you should not assume there’s no aircraft nearby. Use all measures available to avoid MAC, andmaintain an effective lookout scan.
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Makes sense , will give it a try and see how it goes. It's impressive just how good the range is on those low powered GA radios, I have a Garmin 40 and a Trig and often hear folks self announcing on safteycom 135.475 at Insch when I'm landing at Forfar.
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Are we start acting like guinea pigs, continuously squeaking?
Yes, this kind of technique could be a nice addon and yes, I welcomed it in rural Alaska, but - in that case I almost knew every pilot transmitting. In more crowded airspaces compared to Alaska, this will end up in gibberish - my5cents.
Yes, this kind of technique could be a nice addon and yes, I welcomed it in rural Alaska, but - in that case I almost knew every pilot transmitting. In more crowded airspaces compared to Alaska, this will end up in gibberish - my5cents.
Thread Starter
PPP
I'm continuously squawking but the military don't have the means to detect it.
I'm not sure our low level airspace is more crowded - Alaska has much more GA, although our airspace is tiny in comparison.
Are we start acting like guinea pigs, continuously squeaking?
In more crowded airspaces compared to Alaska, this will end up in gibberish - my5cents.
Last edited by Maoraigh1; 29th Jan 2015 at 19:41. Reason: spelling
Thread Starter
That's a problem for those of us with only one box. I'm thinking of my handheld on 135.475 with an earphone under one headset muff, and 135.475 on the inactive on the fixed set, to try it out.
The trial starts on Sunday February 1.
If I know fastjets are coming up the glen behind me, it'll be a bit like being a hedgehog on the motorway hearing traffic coming.
The trial starts on Sunday February 1.
If I know fastjets are coming up the glen behind me, it'll be a bit like being a hedgehog on the motorway hearing traffic coming.
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Piperboy
Quote:
will give it a try and see how it goes.
I hope that doesn't mean your going to abandon my friendly service on 119.875.
Quote:
will give it a try and see how it goes.
I hope that doesn't mean your going to abandon my friendly service on 119.875.
Thread Starter
Link sent as PM with contact details.
If you have any questions regarding the LL VHF Common Frequency, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards,
Safety Centre XO| RAF Lossiemouth | Elgin | Moray | IV31 6SD
Regards,
Safety Centre XO| RAF Lossiemouth | Elgin | Moray | IV31 6SD
In more crowded airspaces compared to Alaska, this will end up in gibberish - my5cents.
US 'Flight Following', i.e. using en route ATC for radar traffic advisories when VFR, is more commonly used (at pilot discretion) when on a longer cross-country flight with a defined routing that could transit either or both remote areas or busy terminal areas. Air-to-air is different, more commonly used for local flying in dense traffic areas, where using ATC would be cumbersome. There can be issues with nervous students announcing their every move, but in general I think it functions OK.