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IFR approach protocol in the UK

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IFR approach protocol in the UK

Old 6th Nov 2014, 06:15
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IFR approach protocol in the UK

Scenario: Flying VFR in uncontrolled airspace without a service, you're approaching your destination airfield (non radar equipped but under a LARS overlay with MATZ bordering the field) which has a published instrument procedure with a manned tower and is currently under IFR conditions.

Who would you talk too to start the ball rolling on a clearance to shoot the approach? Control, Information, LARS or direct to the field tower.
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 06:26
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Look at the instrument plate. First frequency. Or look at the en route supplement. It will tell you in there.

Now if you are flying without either.....
 
Old 6th Nov 2014, 06:45
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Look at the instrument plate
It lists the tower frequency, but it seems like you would be kind of springing it on them at the last minute, I would have thought the tower would prefer getting a hand off from a overlayed control service.
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 07:44
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The approach control will be defined in the airport text at the start of the plates.

You know the bits of the plates nobody ever reads.
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 08:03
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Classic case of RTFM
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 08:27
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So let me get this straight. Other pilots are likely to be inbound to the same airfield and intending to carry out the same iap, probably initially working the LARS frequency until clear of conflicting traffic; you've not called the LARS frequency or your destination to ascertain if they are aware of any other traffic and to pre - warn them you'll be doing an iap, right?
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 08:38
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So let me get this straight. Other pilots are likely to be inbound to the same airfield and intending to carry out the same iap, probably initially working the LARS frequency until clear of conflicting traffic; you've not called your destination to ascertain if they are aware of any other traffic and to pre - warn them you'll be doing an iap, right?
Basically yes but as the AIP says the initial contact will be with the field tower so i guess they are getting "pre warned" and most likely in the scenario i describe one would be coming from the opposite side of the MATZ and not talking to the LARS

The example I use is approaching Dundee from the north west perhaps from the direction of Coupar Angus
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 09:25
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I don't think talking to Leuchars in that scenario would help you at all. They'd phone Dundee and Dundee would tell them to tell you to contact them and, most probably, to remain in VMC.

Dundee's attitude to someone calling up unannounced who's flying VFR but expects to have to fly the IAP will depend crucially on whether they have other IFR traffic. And if they do, the controller will have to work out what to do with you. If you're chugging along at 2000ft and 90kts under the cloudbase, and he has a Do328 expected from the south in half an hour, and (likely in your scenario) the weather's unlikely to allow Leuchars to give the 328 a 'radar to visual', then the controller's focus will be getting the 328 to the NDB at 3000ft to commence the procedure. He would then have to work out if he could get you up to 4000ft en route to the NDB to hold, in time to achieve separation from the 328. Chances are he'd just say remain VMC and remain north of the 09 approach.

NS
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 09:54
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If you're chugging along at 2000ft and 90kts under the cloudbase, and he has a Do328 expected from the south in half an hour,
Well obviously they would try and get everyone from the North to stay north of Montrose. Everyone from the south to the south of Fife.

And west, west of Perth

Wait until its engines have shut down and tell everyone to report at the Castle.

like they always have.

And if you wanted to get in you would be stupid to admit that you were VFR. Just tell them you at MSA and request a procedural service. They have no option but to clear you to the beacon/IAF its the only thing they can do when your 15 miles out when you speak to them.

Last edited by mad_jock; 6th Nov 2014 at 10:07.
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 12:58
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(Quote MJ) And if you wanted to get in you would be stupid to admit that you were VFR. Just tell them you at MSA and request a procedural service. They have no option but to clear you to the beacon/IAF its the only thing they can do when your 15 miles out when you speak to them.

MJ has it spot on. Leuchars will not give you any useful radar service due to poor radar performance especially to the north.

If you want to practise the procedure Dundee do not charge. Book first over the phone.

D.O.
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 13:33
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They can't even clear you to the beacon to be honest. Only request that you report it.

If your just going there for training its out of order doing what I have suggested. But if your going there to land crack on.
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Old 6th Nov 2014, 22:23
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Strikes me if you've got a LARS overlay then why wouldn't you be getting a service from that anyway, even if VFR OCAS ? I know you can and are legal to do so, but personally I always prefer the extra pair of eyes that a service gives you.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 00:28
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when you really don't know...

call on the first frequency, or any frequency associated with the airfield...assuming they are not rat bast#$TY, they will tell you the right frequency to use.

so glad I don't fly in the UK
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 08:30
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in my opinion, call Dundee Tower and request IFR procedure approach due to adverse weather conditions.

I would expect, "climb xxxx thousand feet, report when level, report at the beacon to hold at xxx thousand feet."

Once in the hold, ATC knows where you are. Then onward clearance for the procedure.

Any traffic would be given alternative height separation.

Dundee also has DME to assist with traffic separation.

Flyme
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 10:04
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I would expect, "climb xxxx thousand feet, report when level, report at the beacon to hold at xxx thousand feet."
Once in the hold, ATC knows where you are. Then onward clearance for the procedure.
That is exactly what I would expect. At Glasgow, say arriving VFR, ask for an IFR clearance from approach. Nine times out of ten, no issues, climb to say 5000, go to hold, or vectored out for the approach you require, either VOR, ILS, or NDB/DME.

In my experience, most ATC units are pretty accommodating of these requests.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 10:14
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But the difference is that Dundee isn't radar-equipped and while the essential first step is to get you up to the holding altitude, if they have other inbound IFR traffic that has priority, they need to get it below you/you above it long before lateral separation becomes an issue. When they can only do Procedural Service that's difficult
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 12:06
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They can't move traffic to give priority on a procedural service they are NOT a control service.

In fact you could go in on a basic and all the could do is inform you where the other traffic is.

If they tried to climb me to let that plastic heap in all they would get would be negative due icing.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 16:30
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But the difference is that Dundee isn't radar-equipped and while the essential first step is to get you up to the holding altitude, if they have other inbound IFR traffic that has priority, they need to get it below you/you above it long before lateral separation becomes an issue. When they can only do Procedural Service that's difficult.

Procedure separation was and continues to be used and long pre-dates radar.

The commercial IFR would not normally use the hold; direct to D4 Garmin approach.
Once the location of the intruder is known (e.g. at the hold), no problem for the commercial traffic to stay clear.

flyme.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 18:05
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direct to D4 Garmin approach
Interesting. Can you tell me where that procedure is published? Because if it isn't published it's not legal. Joining final at D4 would mean being at 1300ft as you turn on to the ILS. But up to that point you'd be subject to the 10nm MSA which is 2300ft.

Vectors from Leuchars to base leg at MSA in the expectation of going visual, yes, but self-positioning to D4 below MSA? I'd like to see the evidence.

NS
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 18:45
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But the difference is that Dundee isn't radar-equipped and while the essential first step is to get you up to the holding altitude, if they have other inbound IFR traffic that has priority, they need to get it below you/you above it long before lateral separation becomes an issue. When they can only do Procedural Service that's difficult.

Procedure separation was and continues to be used and long pre-dates radar.

The commercial IFR would not normally use the hold; direct to D4 Garmin approach.
Once the location of the intruder is known (e.g. at the hold), no problem for the commercial traffic to stay clear.

flyme.


Its completely Illegal, you have to go to the IAF as per EU-OPS and PAN-OPS.

1300 from the south and your playing with a 935 spot height the other side of the river.

Sounds not only a particularly gash thing to do but also stupidly dangerous.

And the other traffic isn't an intruder its got as much right to be in class G as any other aircraft.

So it sounds like your CAT is not only getting in with no known procedural separation but also completely without any terrain separation as anyone knows it.
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