Skills test before solo ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: London
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skills test before solo ?
Is it allowed/legal to do the skills test before any solo flights for the requirements for the issue of a PPL licence.
I cannot find any document saying that it is not allowed. Does anyone know definitively ?
I cannot find any document saying that it is not allowed. Does anyone know definitively ?
No it is not.
All training requirements, which includes theoretical knowledge examinations and supervised student solo flying, as well as mandatory dual flight training, shall be completed before the Skill Test is taken.
All training requirements, which includes theoretical knowledge examinations and supervised student solo flying, as well as mandatory dual flight training, shall be completed before the Skill Test is taken.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: York, UK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having obtained my licence earlier this year, I don't think I would want to contemplate doing my skills test (even if I could have done) without some solo hours under my belt.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is set out clearly in 2.1.3 and 2.1.4 in the standards document 19 the guide for people taking the PPL skills test that you must have completed all the flight training required.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_lts..._V7_Sept12.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_lts..._V7_Sept12.pdf
I know there is not supposed to be any question that is too "stupid" to ask, but I think this one may qualify as an exception.......
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skill Test vs "
There is nothing to stop you from taking a full on "Skill Test" with a qualified Examiner at any time you like should you so wish (ie to assess your skill level).
However, as others have said, you are not allowed to be Examined until all other Training/Licence Issue requirements have been met.
Therefore even conducted (the same) as any other Skill Test this one could only be a Mock Skill Test with the Examiner only acting in their capacity as an Instructor and you being considered under training.
One disadvantage of this is that, according to current rules, as they had now been involved in your Training, the same Examiner could not conduct your actual Skill Test once the time comes.
However, as others have said, you are not allowed to be Examined until all other Training/Licence Issue requirements have been met.
Therefore even conducted (the same) as any other Skill Test this one could only be a Mock Skill Test with the Examiner only acting in their capacity as an Instructor and you being considered under training.
One disadvantage of this is that, according to current rules, as they had now been involved in your Training, the same Examiner could not conduct your actual Skill Test once the time comes.
Last edited by Level Attitude; 23rd Oct 2014 at 02:07. Reason: Title should read: Skill Test vs "Skill Test" (iPad trouble)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a slightly tortured logic to this. No-one is allowed to drive a car solo until they've passed a driving test. Arguably the same model could apply to flying.
In both cases no-one should be allowed to go solo until their appropriate attitude and competence are properly demonstrated.
In driving the standards are pathetically low!
In both cases no-one should be allowed to go solo until their appropriate attitude and competence are properly demonstrated.
In driving the standards are pathetically low!
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leaving aside the legality or otherwise of taking the skill test before a solo flight, I don't think any student who has not flown solo would be capable of demonstrating the mental attitude and command capability that is required to pass the test.
So I agree with BPF - asking the question demonstrates a lack of awareness of what's involved to the extent that taking the test would be pointless.
http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/decision.html#sec-decision
So I agree with BPF - asking the question demonstrates a lack of awareness of what's involved to the extent that taking the test would be pointless.
http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/decision.html#sec-decision
It gives rise to an interesting question.
How can the driving system be so irresponsible as to allow drivers to pass a driving test without proving their ability to drive safely and independently before the test?
G
How can the driving system be so irresponsible as to allow drivers to pass a driving test without proving their ability to drive safely and independently before the test?
G
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tamworth, UK / Nairobi, Kenya
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I actually read the question a bit different the first time I read it, and then after all the responses realised the error in my ways, and possibly the error in the wording of the question.
I realise that the question does ask if it's legal, and it does seem to be specifically, can you do the skills test prior to solo, and seems to imply with an examiner, and that it would satisfy the requirements for a PPL. Which is not possible or legal.
However, when I first read the question, I "jumped to the conclusion" that this was from a new student pilot who was nervous about first solo, or a new instructor who is nervous about sending someone out on their first solo. (if it's a new instructor, s/he needs to review some things, starting with the answers already posted)
Assuming that this question is from a new student, or a prospective student, then I'm going to answer the question this way:
Clearly, the instructor, or another instructor at the same school could review the student on all the skills required for SOLO flight. But in order for a student to have all the required training to complete the skills test, which has far more requirements than that required to solo, the student must fly some hours solo.
For example, there is no requirement for a student to be able to navigate cross country in order to fly solo, but it is required for the skills test. Another example is that to fly solo, the student should be flying completely VFR, but to pass the skills test you have to have some time "under the hood" flying on instruments.
Since your instructor will only send you on your first solo after you've proven to him/her that you're capable of flying a circuit (pattern), then you have, actually passed a "skills test" for all that is required for your first solo.
If you're not comfortable with flying solo, and it's not a case of just being a bit nervous, we are all nervous on our first solo, that's why most instructors won't tell you before the actual solo, but just get out one day and say something like "make 3 circuits, full stop, I'll be on the radio, see you in 20 minutes". If you're not comfortable, at that point, then tell your instructor, s/he will understand, and work with you on whatever you're not comfortable about.
I realise that the question does ask if it's legal, and it does seem to be specifically, can you do the skills test prior to solo, and seems to imply with an examiner, and that it would satisfy the requirements for a PPL. Which is not possible or legal.
However, when I first read the question, I "jumped to the conclusion" that this was from a new student pilot who was nervous about first solo, or a new instructor who is nervous about sending someone out on their first solo. (if it's a new instructor, s/he needs to review some things, starting with the answers already posted)
Assuming that this question is from a new student, or a prospective student, then I'm going to answer the question this way:
Clearly, the instructor, or another instructor at the same school could review the student on all the skills required for SOLO flight. But in order for a student to have all the required training to complete the skills test, which has far more requirements than that required to solo, the student must fly some hours solo.
For example, there is no requirement for a student to be able to navigate cross country in order to fly solo, but it is required for the skills test. Another example is that to fly solo, the student should be flying completely VFR, but to pass the skills test you have to have some time "under the hood" flying on instruments.
Since your instructor will only send you on your first solo after you've proven to him/her that you're capable of flying a circuit (pattern), then you have, actually passed a "skills test" for all that is required for your first solo.
If you're not comfortable with flying solo, and it's not a case of just being a bit nervous, we are all nervous on our first solo, that's why most instructors won't tell you before the actual solo, but just get out one day and say something like "make 3 circuits, full stop, I'll be on the radio, see you in 20 minutes". If you're not comfortable, at that point, then tell your instructor, s/he will understand, and work with you on whatever you're not comfortable about.
Last edited by darkroomsource; 23rd Oct 2014 at 08:13. Reason: spelling (but I might not have caught all the mistrakes)
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a former instructor, I consider it a perfectly reasonable question, in fact an extremely sensible one, especially when you consider the comparison with the driving test - Genghis has a good point. The answer has been given, but I too am intrigued as to why it was asked. Care to enlighten us, rollin?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: London
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all the help. The question is relevant to complications of availability of aircraft.
Further question: Is it legal for a student PPL A pilot to fly solo hours in a complex SEP aircraft (retractable gear, constant speed prop) ?
Further question: Is it legal for a student PPL A pilot to fly solo hours in a complex SEP aircraft (retractable gear, constant speed prop) ?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
Genghis:
Or, alternatively, "how irresponsible would it be if the driving system allowed people to go off driving solo, with no supervision, before they'd passed their test?"
Flying's totally different. It's much more predictable and procedural. You don't (usually!) get other vehicles or pedestrians pulling out right in front of you in a plane, and you have three dimensions in which to manoeuvre.
NS
How can the driving system be so irresponsible as to allow drivers to pass a driving test without proving their ability to drive safely and independently before the test?
Flying's totally different. It's much more predictable and procedural. You don't (usually!) get other vehicles or pedestrians pulling out right in front of you in a plane, and you have three dimensions in which to manoeuvre.
NS
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NorthSouth, one could equally argue that flying is much more complicated just because you have to cope with all three dimensions. Also, although planes don't regularly pull out in front of you, they can and sometimes do. And...you have to deal with changing weather, taking time to talk on the radio, and changes of plan - there's been at least one case of a first solo where the student had to be diverted to another airfield owing to an accident on the runway of the home field. And if the going gets tough, you can't pull over and stop for a bit as drivers can. I could go on, and we could argue this for ever... But as I see it, Genghis was making the point that there is no obvious reason why learner drivers and student pilots should be treated so differently with regard to flying/driving solo. So the original question is very reasonable.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the other hand, the average distance between cars on the road vs. planes in the air is quite different.
If a solo student pilot in a plane makes a fatal error, it is very, very unlikely that he kills somebody else while doing so. But if a solo student driver in a car makes a fatal error, chances are very high that he takes somebody out with him.
In all types of learning, we makes mistakes, and learn from those mistakes. However, in an environment where making mistakes can easily lead to the death of others, you would not want somebody to make those mistakes without somebody else nearby who can instantly correct those mistakes.
If a solo student pilot in a plane makes a fatal error, it is very, very unlikely that he kills somebody else while doing so. But if a solo student driver in a car makes a fatal error, chances are very high that he takes somebody out with him.
In all types of learning, we makes mistakes, and learn from those mistakes. However, in an environment where making mistakes can easily lead to the death of others, you would not want somebody to make those mistakes without somebody else nearby who can instantly correct those mistakes.
For consistency, I suppose that both flying and driving would conduct the some form of skill test *before* solo, then have further supervised solo and perhaps a second test before award of a licence. Actually we do, as the unrestricted FI qualification includes an implied competence to authorise solo flight.
I could certainly see arguments for that, and in flying we'd probably accept it, but in driving I'm pretty certain that a lot of people would scream blue murder about it.
G
I could certainly see arguments for that, and in flying we'd probably accept it, but in driving I'm pretty certain that a lot of people would scream blue murder about it.
G
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Further question: Is it legal for a student PPL A pilot to fly solo hours in a complex SEP aircraft (retractable gear, constant speed prop) ?
Although rare some students will do their whole course on such an aircraft.