So when does it all click?
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To keep banging on about angle of attack as if we don't get it is not getting us anywhere. We do "get it".
The problem is convincing you that we get it.
The problem is convincing you that we get it.
As stated, AoA awareness will be one of those "click" moments, and the new pilot probably won't realize that click has happened until they look back upon their own improved skills, and understand that is has.
SSD mentions aerobatics as a great way to refine the understanding of AoA, G and speed as it relates to stalling. I do agree, but as he says, aircraft availability makes that impractical as a learning tool for the masses - we just don't have enough aerobatic planes nor instructors to go around.
So we're going to have to train and mentor the new pilots with the resources available. The challenge is though that this is one of those skills which has a large element of learning which can be done only hands on, and with lots of practice. I doubt that most of the PPL's out there want to spend their hours or two of rental a month practicing stalls and slow flight, when they could take their mates or significant others for a flight somewhere.
Stall awareness and airplane handling is a perishable skill. Once a pilot has done a few hundred stalls in different types, that skill will have a longer shelf life, but still not indefinite. A month ago I did ten hours training with a 300 pilot, which included 20 approach and landings where precise stall awareness was a primary element. The aircraft was fitted with an Alpha Systems AoA indicator, and we focused a lot on using it. It worked very well. But it too was only a part of a good approach, and even while flying with it, I still had to correct a few approaches.
This goes to show the importance of a "whole knowledge" of the subject, not just picking points and declaring "I get it". Anyone here being offended because someone else does not seem to get it is pointless, but each pilot reading need to know that their own life may depend upon their getting it!
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Since the AOA is constant in the vertical in the first part of this clip, at what point can the wing be considered to be stalled? With reference to the ASI?
Re stall/spin: IMO the most important "click" is recognizing the fact the airplane is about to enter slow flight by tactile and visual clues and automatically and without thinking, correct the situation.
To get into an inadvertent spin you have to be stupid times 3
Stupid times 1 = Allowing the aircraft to get into inadvertent slow flight and not recovering into the normal flight regime
Stupid times 2 = Allowing the airspeed to continue to decay enough to allow the aircraft to stall
Stupid times 3 = After the aircraft has stalled allowing the aircraft to yaw
The bottom line is simple, pay attention to what the airplane is doing and if it is not doing what you want then fix it. Fly the airplane don't let it fly you
Disclaimer
My comments are intended for pilots flying one of the common Cessna/Piper trainers like the OP and I suspect the vast majority of the people reading this thread. If you are flying a high performance and/or unusual handling aircraft then additional precautions are required.
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I have to say I never got comfortable with stall and spin and related departures until I'd done a few hours in a decent aerobatic aircraft.
And my first spin was in a traumahawk during PPL, albeit one with the LE wedges. Really seemed to flick in and rather put me off. After that, driving around in PA28 etc I always felt like I was balancing in a narrow region of control that could easily get away from me.
I think that's the problem, you're taught to fly by numbers, you don't get enough feel, and you certainly don't spend enough time in the marginal area to know what that feels like, just a few nervous, stressed stalls and hurried recovery.
And that's why everyone uses stall speed of course, because you are flying in a limited number of regimes and there is a reasonably accurate stall speed for them. But if you start to do anything dynamic rather than steady state, a particular speed isn't sufficient approximation any more. I honestly think all GA aircraft should have AoA indicators - one for each wing if you want to enthusiastically waggle them while pulling G
I would encourage everyone to get a few hours aerobatics experience in a decent aircraft specifically to get to understand this, then you do start to automatically unload when things start to feel odd and only then have to think about what's going on.
Enlightening to be floating over the top of a loop at well below "stall speed", or feeling buffet when pulling too hard in the last quarter, to be able to push and pull in and out of buffet when slow in an extended vertical.
This is how I started to get a real feel for how the aircraft flys.
Caveat that of course one can get complacent about how the usual aircraft / loading feels and get badly bitten in a different type / loading.
And my first spin was in a traumahawk during PPL, albeit one with the LE wedges. Really seemed to flick in and rather put me off. After that, driving around in PA28 etc I always felt like I was balancing in a narrow region of control that could easily get away from me.
I think that's the problem, you're taught to fly by numbers, you don't get enough feel, and you certainly don't spend enough time in the marginal area to know what that feels like, just a few nervous, stressed stalls and hurried recovery.
And that's why everyone uses stall speed of course, because you are flying in a limited number of regimes and there is a reasonably accurate stall speed for them. But if you start to do anything dynamic rather than steady state, a particular speed isn't sufficient approximation any more. I honestly think all GA aircraft should have AoA indicators - one for each wing if you want to enthusiastically waggle them while pulling G
I would encourage everyone to get a few hours aerobatics experience in a decent aircraft specifically to get to understand this, then you do start to automatically unload when things start to feel odd and only then have to think about what's going on.
Enlightening to be floating over the top of a loop at well below "stall speed", or feeling buffet when pulling too hard in the last quarter, to be able to push and pull in and out of buffet when slow in an extended vertical.
This is how I started to get a real feel for how the aircraft flys.
Caveat that of course one can get complacent about how the usual aircraft / loading feels and get badly bitten in a different type / loading.
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kennyc, buy yourself some time in a basic aircraft complete with a relaxed and experienced instructor, and request at least one solid hour of just MESSING AROUND at altitude.
If the instruments are covered, even better. Get used to stalling in turns, lots of turns, nose high, steep turns, thermal turns. Play with the aircraft, just have fun for an hour, don't try to learn anything. Best way to get a feel for it.
If the instruments are covered, even better. Get used to stalling in turns, lots of turns, nose high, steep turns, thermal turns. Play with the aircraft, just have fun for an hour, don't try to learn anything. Best way to get a feel for it.
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A few days ago whilst discussing the merits and otherwise of constant speed props, I've never flown one by the way. An accident was discussed whereby the prop was capable of being reversed. The aircraft was on final at a height in excess of 50 ft when the pilot selected reverse pitch. Now, I don't know if this is true, or whether there is some safety feature to prevent this or not. I don't think the pilot can tell us either. So perhaps the more experienced can comment on whether this is possible. I would think the consequences wouldn't need to be discussed much.
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the prop was capable of being reversed
Have a look at my post #963 here: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...videos-49.html
I did all of the developmental testing on this aircraft, and the MT prop is magnificent!
This is the only piston powered Cessna ever with a reversing prop. It is incapable of entering reverse in flight. My 13 page report describes this in great detail.
I have flown Twin Otters just nudging into reverse in flight, accompanied by a DHC test pilot and gosh, do they go down fast doing this!
I flew testing in a Siai Marchetti 1019, which has a 400 HP turboprop engine and reversing propeller. There is a locking control to prevent unintended entry into reverse, But, I managed to once accidentally bypass it in the flare while moving an adjacent control, and the plane about stopped in the air, and dropped the last couple of feet. Not good at all! Nothing hurt, but it could have been much worse.
Lake Amphibians are commonly fitted with MT reversing propellers, which are wonderful for precise water maneuvering.
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Our props if you manage to get them into beta in the air they won't come out.
Its because the return spring isn't strong enough.
I think their have been 2 incidents which are believed to be because of beta selection nobody survived.
There have been other incidents one they think went into beta at around 2m off the ground and resulted in a 5.6g landing.
Its because the return spring isn't strong enough.
I think their have been 2 incidents which are believed to be because of beta selection nobody survived.
There have been other incidents one they think went into beta at around 2m off the ground and resulted in a 5.6g landing.
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Our props if you manage to get them into beta in the air they won't come out
Yes, all reversing systems I have flown have some kind of interlock to prevent, or at least reduce the likelihood of entering reverse blade angle in flight. Some are more effective than others.
I can say from co pilot experience that a DHC test pilot can get a Twin Otter from 6000 AGL to down and clear, in less than 2 minutes, with the help of reverse - that was a ride!
As a real drift, the DC-8-63 allowed approach with the inner two engines operating in reverse thrust. It came down quickly doing that!
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kennyc, buy yourself some time in a basic aircraft complete with a relaxed and experienced instructor, and request at least one solid hour of just MESSING AROUND at altitude.
If the instruments are covered, even better. Get used to stalling in turns, lots of turns, nose high, steep turns, thermal turns. Play with the aircraft, just have fun for an hour, don't try to learn anything. Best way to get a feel for it.
If the instruments are covered, even better. Get used to stalling in turns, lots of turns, nose high, steep turns, thermal turns. Play with the aircraft, just have fun for an hour, don't try to learn anything. Best way to get a feel for it.
