So when does it all click?

[foxmoth]

Why do spins at all unless you are doing an aerobatics rating?

Increased knowledge and handling ability?

[mad_jock]

Agreed it does but its the when its done and by whom which I think is up for debate.

It was years after I finished instructing I realised how ill equipped I had been teaching spinning in the aircraft I was using.

[wsmempson]

300hrs is a number that seems to come up quite often.

After passing my PPL, thinking that I knew how to fly now, I bought an aged PA28 140 and flew 300hrs in 18 months. At 300hrs it all really came together, and also made me realise how accurate the description of the ppl was, as a "licence to learn".

[foxmoth]

Agreed it does but its the when its done and by whom which I think is up for debate.

And in what aircraft - but I think this has been covered enough in previous threads.

[9 lives]

many people who have this reaction I find have done spinning in aircraft that are not really suitable such as C152 or Pa28 or an instructor who uses the technique that results from learning on these aircraft, by this I mean that they pull hard into the entry then have a rushed patter before the aircraft recovers by itself - do spinning on a proper spinning aircraft with a good instructor

C152s and PA28s spin and recover in a way which allows the student to appreciate the concept of a spin, and the sensations to be experienced. These types also allow practice at recovery technique. They are suitable. That is not to say they are the best, but they're suitable - they're certified for it.

A good friend of mine used to tell me about spinning Meteors, Hunters, and the efforts made to not spin Phantoms. From what he tells me, spinning a Hunter made a pilot out of you - a Hunter pilot. Very cool, but personally, I don't see myself needing to develop the skills to spin and recover a Hunter.

If a pilot learns to skillfully spin and recover a C152, or a PA28, that pilot will have adequate skills to recover a recoverable spin in any certified single engine aircraft, and that's all that's intended from the training.

Sure, there are excellent things to be learned in aerobatics courses, and in other aerobatic types - go for it if that interests you.

But otherwise every student should learn the basics of spinning - three reasons: Awareness - you know what's going to happen if you get in, and that there will be a period of rotation where the aircraft will seem to not react to a control input, but be patient. The knowledge that you can recover a recoverable spin, so don't just give up. And, you understand the sensations as you approach the stall/spin, so you can allow yourself to get close (a confident 1.3Vs approach in a crosswind with a chop), and thus fly the aircraft as it was designed, rather that these 1.3Vs + 15 knot approaches resulting from lack of skill and understanding. An added bonus would be the instructor who has the student spin the same aircraft at the extremes of its spin approved C of G range, to see the difference in handling. This is where one learns why we don't load behind the aft C of G limit!

I'm one of those students of the '70's who was only trained spins in a 150. At that time, that was all that was available. But I practiced, practiced, and still practice. I do not accidentally spin airplanes, and when I deliberately spin them under planned safe testing conditions, it works out fine. Now, I count 12 types I have spun, and with changed configurations, it becomes 17, With the biggest being a Cessna Grand Caravan. It taught me that there is no room to not follow the Flight Manual procedure, so know your aircraft!

So students, go and spin the spin approved aircraft - even just the compromise C 152/PA28, in a planned flight for that purpose, with your instructor. You'll thank yourself later....

[foxmoth]

C152s and PA28s spin and recover in a way which allows the student to appreciate the concept of a spin, and the sensations to be experienced. These types also allow practice at recovery technique. They are suitable. That is not to say they are the best, but they're suitable - they're certified for it.

IMHO, just because an aircraft is certified for something does NOT mean it is suitable!
C152s and Pa28s are not easy to get into a spin so the entry tends to be overdramatic with a hard pull back before the stall is reached, then they do not stay in easily so the instructors patter tends to be rushed, then the spin will frequently degenerate into a spiral dive, so this does NOT show the "concept" of the spin (whatever that is?!) and often results in the incorrect recovery being used as it should then be a spiral dive recovery - and part of proper spin training is showing the difference between Spin and spiral.
Compare this to spinning in something like the Bulldog - entry can be done AT the stall and it will enter a spin without a dramatic nose up inverted entry, it will then stay in the spin, giving the instructor plenty of time to cover WIHIH, much more relaxed. Teaching on Cessna and Pipers is, I believe, one reason so many hate and fear spinning!

[glendalegoon]

FWIW the PA28 should not be spun if loaded into the "NORMAL" catagory.

You must load it into the UTILITY Catagory, so check you W&B and aircraft manual.

Now, if you want to have fun in a spin, try a tomahawk!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've spun a C150 a few times, because it seemed to be the only way to pass a course at the time but wasn't at-all happy about it, the PA28 not at-all.

Every aeroplane I've been comfortable spinning had a "get out of gaol" card - whether that was a BRS, ejector seat, or personal parachute and jettisonable door.

Okay, there are a few hardened aerobatic pilots who spin at very low level and thus the parachute would do no good at-all. Those pilots are usually very current in spinning and know their aeroplanes very well - so far enough, they fly other manoeuvres where there's no recovery if it's messed up either. Their call, grown-ups and all that.


But I really cannot accept the perceived wisdom in deliberately spinning an aeroplane with no emergency "route out". Maybe I know too much having studied the spin at very great length during my PhD, but I know people - better pilots than me who have jumped or pulled the handle from an unrecoverable spin, and knew somebody who didn't.

(My distant recollecton of spinning the Hunter was that it was pretty straightforward and honest - just lost a stupid amount of altitude.)



As for when it clicks - for me it's really a matter of recency rather than total time. If I'm doing the sort of flying I've been doing, say, 6-12 hours per month over the last 3+ months, it's clicked and whilst complacency is still the enemy, I can get pretty smooth and consistent. If I go below half a dozen hours a month, or are doing the sort of flying I've not done for a while (say some complicated handling tests, which I tend to only do a few times a year, or an instrument approach if I've not flown one for 3+ months, then it's distinctly un-clicked and I need to get myself back in the groove.)

G

[foxmoth]

FWIW the PA28 should not be spun if loaded into the "NORMAL" catagory.

You must load it into the UTILITY Catagory, so check you W&B and aircraft manual.

That applies to almost all aircraft, even some highly aerobatic ones!

[9 lives]

then the spin will frequently degenerate into a spiral dive, so this does NOT show the "concept" of the spin (whatever that is?!) and often results in the incorrect recovery being used

Well, yes and no, and no. A properly entered spin in a utility category plane will not become a spiral dive, or that plane would not be certified. Any aircraft for which the spin changes to a spiral dive within one turn of the spin will not be certified without a lot of discussion with the approving authority. This is why the installation of a STOL kit wing cuff on a 150 or 172, will result in a "Spins prohibited" limitation. It simply won't stay in the spin past one turn, as required by the utility design requirements.

So yes, training spin recovery in an aircraft in which the spin changes into a spiral dive by itself is more difficult, though properly briefed, it is a valuable learning opportunity. But, if you're training spins in an aircraft which won't stay in a spin for one turn, something is wrong. Otherwise, if you are following the spin recovery technique specified by the aircraft manufacturer, the correct recovery is being used. In all cases it's going to include reduce the AoA, and stop the yaw. Minor variations in this may delay recovery, but they will not prevent it. For example, the Caravan POH says to avoid the use of the ailerons, as the up going spoiler linked to the aileron may delay recovery.

As for the Bulldog, I've read about how good they are for spin training, and I'd love to try one - but I'm not aware that there are any in Canada. Everyone who I know who has spun them says they are superior to other training types (in many ways), and how lucky for those who can train in them - but it does not make spin training in other utility types unworthwhile....

A "click" for me is that with proper preparation, I'll one turn spin any certified normal category single engined GA aircraft, for which a spin demonstration is required for certification.

[mad_jock]

I have only once spun a c152 and it remained in the spin of its own violation.


Unfortunately it wouldn't recover using the poh prescribed spin recovery.

[Pirke]

Mad_jock: wrong mass&balance?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well, yes and no, and no. A properly entered spin in a utility category plane will not become a spiral dive, or that plane would not be certified. Any aircraft for which the spin changes to a spiral dive within one turn of the spin will not be certified without a lot of discussion with the approving authority.

I wouldn't regard that as much of a problem myself given that a spiral dive is easily recovered from in most aeroplanes - I've test flown and certified without difficulty aeroplanes which autorecovered into a spiral dive. I can't think of anything in part 23 which requires the aeroplane to stay in a spin.

It does need some careful POH wording, and there is the issue that most light aircraft instructors and students never read the POH, but that's basically Darwinian and the authorities don't have big issues about that.

G

[mad_jock]

Nope just a none certified tested entry put us in a mode which isn't documented.

During fi rating the fii was demoing steep turns and pulled to the buffet and then waggled the controls in roll.

Outside wing stalled competly we flicked over the top into a high rot spin. Faster than the pa38.

Normally poh recovery performed and basically sod all happended with full rudder and the stick full forward.

Controls were then neutralised rudder applied and throttle opened until the rotation started slowing then a small amount of forward pitch applied. We recovered to s&l at about 750ft agl from 6k and over 5 rotations.

I suggest you don't try and replicate it. The engine was burping and farting during the spin and if it hadden't picked up i would have been a greasy smear.

[rolling20]

As for the Bulldog, I've read about how good they are for spin training, and I'd love to try one - but I'm not aware that there are any in Canada. Everyone who I know who has spun them says they are superior to other training types (in many ways), and how lucky for those who can train in them - but it does not make spin training in other utility types unworthwhile....

The Bulldog could get into a High rotational spin with unusual characteristics from which there was no recovery. We were told in no uncertain terms to hit the silk! I only had limited knowlwdge of it.Thoroughly put me off spinning!

[Crash one]

Thank you M-J. It's a bit off putting to read such things about a supposedly benign training aircraft. What would have happened to a student solo?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Back when I did my PPL spins were part of the syllabus. It was quite difficult to get the C150 to spin as opposed to spiral dive, and one method we used was a flick entry. There have, however, been accidents over the years that show that the normally benign 150/152 can and does spin viciously. And I suspect, like many aeroplanes that don't readily spin, when they do spin for real, recovery may be prolonged.

I've spun quite a few aeroplanes (150 / 152, Chipmunk, Citabria, Yak52 come to mind) and thankfully never had any recovery issues. Only in the Yak did I have a parachute, but knowing what I do now about how spins are not necessarily repeatable (each can be a bit different to the last and occasionally you might get a very nasty one) I wouldn't do it now without a parachute and plenty of height.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Thank you M-J. It's a bit off putting to read such things about a supposedly benign training aircraft. What would have happened to a student solo?

Don't student spin accidents usually involve screwing up the turn from base to final? So it hardly matters what sort of spin it is, or which recovery method works, as there isn't the height to recover?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Don't student spin accidents usually involve screwing up the turn from base to final? So it hardly matters what sort of spin it is, or which recovery method works, as there isn't the height to recover?

Spin accidents take many forms; the base-to-final turn is only one example. However, although a fully developed spin from circuit height is irrecoverable, a pilot trained in and familiar with the feel of the aeroplane as it departs probably won't allow the aeroplane to spin as it'll be ingrained second nature for hands and feet to reduce the AoA and remove any yaw before a spin develops.

A pilot without that grounding in spins and spin recovery will probably miss the subtle clues the aeroplane gives before departure, and may not even know something's wrong until the nose starts to drop. At that point, still not understanding what's happening, they may well instinctively pull back.

Incipient spin training simply doesn't cut it. To be sensitised to those subtle pre-departure clues and to have the automatic reactions to them to unload the wing and remove any yaw without having to think about it (there won't be time!), requires that the pilot be in regular full spin and recovery practice, and/or current in aeros where critical AoA is sometimes exceeded.

[9 lives]

A pilot without that grounding in spins and spin recovery will probably miss the subtle clues the aeroplane gives before departure, and may not even know something's wrong until the nose starts to drop. At that point, still not understanding what's happening, they may well instinctively pull back.

In thousands of posts, this is probably one of the most relevant written in a long time.... Pay heed....