The future of "General Aviation"
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The future of "General Aviation"
10 years ago I was looking for a light a/c (single or twin) to fly around Europe for business, year round.
Now we all know the saying "time to spare, go by air" bla bla, so I was realistic about mission profile, a/c type and equipment, weather limitations etc etc, and came to the conclusion that I either spend $1m minimum or I should go commercial airline.
Well, I went commercial, and it feels like I have spent far too much of the last 10 years in sh1tty airports and on sh1tty airlines due to the routes required.
So here I am again, older, grumpier and less constrained by work schedules, but still needing to travel around Europe.
I have looked around recently at a/c that fit my slightly looser requirement, but still come away feeling like there's nothing to do the job under $1m (Piper Jetprop). There seems to be no investment or incentive.
So, to my question (no, it's not advice on what a/c to get):
What is the future for general aviation in Europe, if it is not as a viable means of transport will it always be something we do just for the hell of it to get "kicks"?
Note: you will always have the diehards who cross oceans in micro lights etc. but I am talking about mortals here!
Now we all know the saying "time to spare, go by air" bla bla, so I was realistic about mission profile, a/c type and equipment, weather limitations etc etc, and came to the conclusion that I either spend $1m minimum or I should go commercial airline.
Well, I went commercial, and it feels like I have spent far too much of the last 10 years in sh1tty airports and on sh1tty airlines due to the routes required.
So here I am again, older, grumpier and less constrained by work schedules, but still needing to travel around Europe.
I have looked around recently at a/c that fit my slightly looser requirement, but still come away feeling like there's nothing to do the job under $1m (Piper Jetprop). There seems to be no investment or incentive.
So, to my question (no, it's not advice on what a/c to get):
What is the future for general aviation in Europe, if it is not as a viable means of transport will it always be something we do just for the hell of it to get "kicks"?
Note: you will always have the diehards who cross oceans in micro lights etc. but I am talking about mortals here!
Depends on what you want. I came rather rapidly to the conclusion that the economy and utility of the commercial airlines is rather hard to beat.
On the other hand if you can't stand airports at any price and you've got rather deep pockets and a sensible aircraft (preferable turbine with a reliable three axis auto pilot slaved to a GPS) then, that could be the way to go.
On the other hand if you can't stand airports at any price and you've got rather deep pockets and a sensible aircraft (preferable turbine with a reliable three axis auto pilot slaved to a GPS) then, that could be the way to go.
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PPL/IR Europe
Hi Squeege,
May I suggest that you put your question to the people on the PPL/IR Europe website at PPL/IR Europe - Home. They are PPLs who specialise in flying IFR.
The home page of their website opens with the statement: -
'PPL/IR Europe is open to any pilot who is interested in operating light aircraft under IFR in Europe. We now have over 400 members, most of whom are private pilots with current Instrument Ratings, but some members are still working on, or considering, this rating, and a number of commercial and airline pilots are also members.
Most of our members hold British licences but we have members in Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Iceland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and USA, and a growing number in all these countries fly on FAA licenses'.
So that should give you some idea.
I'm sure with that amount of expertise to hand, someone there will be able to advise you.
I reckon you will be looking at least at perhaps £130,000 worth of aeroplane; (SEP, constant speed de-iced prop, top class avionics, three axis autopilot).
Good luck!
BP.
May I suggest that you put your question to the people on the PPL/IR Europe website at PPL/IR Europe - Home. They are PPLs who specialise in flying IFR.
The home page of their website opens with the statement: -
'PPL/IR Europe is open to any pilot who is interested in operating light aircraft under IFR in Europe. We now have over 400 members, most of whom are private pilots with current Instrument Ratings, but some members are still working on, or considering, this rating, and a number of commercial and airline pilots are also members.
Most of our members hold British licences but we have members in Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Iceland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and USA, and a growing number in all these countries fly on FAA licenses'.
So that should give you some idea.
I'm sure with that amount of expertise to hand, someone there will be able to advise you.
I reckon you will be looking at least at perhaps £130,000 worth of aeroplane; (SEP, constant speed de-iced prop, top class avionics, three axis autopilot).
Good luck!
BP.
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What is the future for general aviation in Europe, if it is not as a viable means of transport will it always be something we do just for the hell of it to get "kicks"?
Rod1
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As usual - it depends. If you need airline-style dispatch rates, then yes, the Jetprop is about the entry-level airplane. If you can be a bit more flexible, then there are other options, although none of them 'cheap' (not a word normally used in an aviation context anyway).
In Europe, the mix of WX, regulations and the historic aversion to seeing GA as a means of transport rather than a hobby conspire to make it rather difficult to use a personal airplane as a mode of biz transport. There are people who do, but again, the Jetprop or the Meridian (better) or some twin are really what you need. Pretty much anything below that level and it's 'for the kicks, unless you can be very flexible with your time.
Other than that, there are of course the fractionals (NetJets, etc).
In Europe, the mix of WX, regulations and the historic aversion to seeing GA as a means of transport rather than a hobby conspire to make it rather difficult to use a personal airplane as a mode of biz transport. There are people who do, but again, the Jetprop or the Meridian (better) or some twin are really what you need. Pretty much anything below that level and it's 'for the kicks, unless you can be very flexible with your time.
Other than that, there are of course the fractionals (NetJets, etc).
There's a ton of SE IFR flown in the US. I've heard that 1/3 of US PPLs have an IFR rating.
Capacity does cost money. A lot depends on how flexible your business meeting schedule is -- and how tightly your non-meeting time is scheduled.
Capacity does cost money. A lot depends on how flexible your business meeting schedule is -- and how tightly your non-meeting time is scheduled.
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I have made many trips that could not have been accomplished, in the same time frame, by any means other than private aircraft.
Flying commercial often means having to stay overnight somewhere you don't want to be because the airlines don't fly at the time you want them to fly. I have saved many days.
However, to match commercial airline reliability, you need a very capable aircraft (Seneca, Baron or King Air perhaps) and you need to be a very competent pilot. The investment required to achieve this, if you are not flying for the love of aviation, would make me think seriously about private charter as an alternative to commercial.
Flying commercial often means having to stay overnight somewhere you don't want to be because the airlines don't fly at the time you want them to fly. I have saved many days.
However, to match commercial airline reliability, you need a very capable aircraft (Seneca, Baron or King Air perhaps) and you need to be a very competent pilot. The investment required to achieve this, if you are not flying for the love of aviation, would make me think seriously about private charter as an alternative to commercial.
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I spent about 10 years on taking the commercial route and also wasted quite a bit of my lifetime waiting at sh***ty airports for delayed planes or even worse - got shuttled long distances by Taxicab, when flights got cancelled (in my case that was always a matter of airport closing hours due to "noise" reasons ...).
My requirements profile changed a bit, when I had more influence on the places to go. If you have a need for strange locations and want to stay commercial pax, wait for the upcoming renaissance of the regional airlines.
In my view, you don't need heavy equipment like a King or JetProp. You get along pretty far with Beech F33 or even C182s, with some restrictions even 172s will do most of the jobs.
My requirements profile changed a bit, when I had more influence on the places to go. If you have a need for strange locations and want to stay commercial pax, wait for the upcoming renaissance of the regional airlines.
In my view, you don't need heavy equipment like a King or JetProp. You get along pretty far with Beech F33 or even C182s, with some restrictions even 172s will do most of the jobs.
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I very successfully flew myself around Europe IFR in a Mooney 201 for a decade or so a number of years ago. It worked very well for about half the year (when BST applied, roughly). Outside of that, you needed to be much more careful due to icing, and the lower availability of open airports when night closed in.
The Mooney was a pretty good platform for it, if you didn't want to spend the money on a different class of aeroplane. But so far as non de-iced SE a/c go, they tend to be well equipped and they are fast and efficient.
Of course, there's a certain frisson to operating SE non deiced a/c IFR and at night.
That was before the low cost airlines though, which I suspect have changed the comparative economics, if that matters to you.
Paul
The Mooney was a pretty good platform for it, if you didn't want to spend the money on a different class of aeroplane. But so far as non de-iced SE a/c go, they tend to be well equipped and they are fast and efficient.
Of course, there's a certain frisson to operating SE non deiced a/c IFR and at night.
That was before the low cost airlines though, which I suspect have changed the comparative economics, if that matters to you.
Paul
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It worked very well for about half the year
Which is why I suggested, for all year round capability, you need a more capable aircraft, as was hinted at by the OP when he said something around $1m......
I don't see that sector of GA changing much in the next 10 years. It is the puddle jumper market that will disappear as owners find paperwork more difficult to comply with, Avgas become too expensive....... Finding a Mooney and flying it around Europe will, I hate to say, be a memory of things past rather than a practical means of travel in the future.
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Read the OP.
So, to my question (no, it's not advice on what a/c to get):
What is the future for general aviation in Europe, if it is not as a viable means of transport will it always be something we do just for the hell of it to get "kicks"?
So, to my question (no, it's not advice on what a/c to get):
What is the future for general aviation in Europe, if it is not as a viable means of transport will it always be something we do just for the hell of it to get "kicks"?
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without trying to highjack this threat
the question which aircraft is high on my list
my mission-statement is : some long distance fun flying, but within a limited time frame (within Europe) and some business flying, also in Europe, place like Germany, Switzerland, France and Italy
Of course IFR flying
Budget is of course an issue, my company is only small
wondering what airplane to look for and wondering whether the GA legidslation within Europe will allow us
Thanks
Ronny
the question which aircraft is high on my list
my mission-statement is : some long distance fun flying, but within a limited time frame (within Europe) and some business flying, also in Europe, place like Germany, Switzerland, France and Italy
Of course IFR flying
Budget is of course an issue, my company is only small
wondering what airplane to look for and wondering whether the GA legidslation within Europe will allow us
Thanks
Ronny
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Go for continuing in a 737 ... GA is something like the current McCarthy era in Europe. You are the bad one, the snobby one, the far-too-rich one, the jealoused and slaughtered one when the revolution comes ...
What about doing a real checklist for your need, then list the requirements following and look for what is left? Like: Europe, fun&business, affordable etc etc ... go for Jet-A1 as Autofuel most probably is not in that performance range, what noise and night restrictions apply for the airfields wanted, short field needed (thing of hot&high in Switzerland) ... My guess - you will end up in a pretty short list and if browsing for planes available on the market starts, I bet there are less then half a dozen machines to look at.
What about doing a real checklist for your need, then list the requirements following and look for what is left? Like: Europe, fun&business, affordable etc etc ... go for Jet-A1 as Autofuel most probably is not in that performance range, what noise and night restrictions apply for the airfields wanted, short field needed (thing of hot&high in Switzerland) ... My guess - you will end up in a pretty short list and if browsing for planes available on the market starts, I bet there are less then half a dozen machines to look at.
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As a non European, it appears to me that the required fuel is now becoming the dividing line. I was flying in Europe last week. The only airport which sold the required 100LL was a 40 minute flight from home base. The landing fee at that airport, was about half the cost of filling my 150 here at home. I did not buy the fuel for the plane, so I have no idea of it's cost!
Chicken and egg, I see the core of GA aircraft (the single Cessnas and Pipers) declining, so it now gets even more divided to Jet fuel or mogas burners. If GA in Europe is not declining, it's at least becoming a lot more compartmentalized by type....
Chicken and egg, I see the core of GA aircraft (the single Cessnas and Pipers) declining, so it now gets even more divided to Jet fuel or mogas burners. If GA in Europe is not declining, it's at least becoming a lot more compartmentalized by type....
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"The future of GA in Europe ?
Farm Strips. Rotax. Mogas. Permit. "
Whilst I agree that this is going to get more and more important and I regularly tour Europe, am based on a strip and my aircraft is powered by a Rotax, it is however important that we do not actively damage other forms of GA. If all the VFR aircraft move out of IFR capable airfields the remaining IFR GA aircraft will suffer crippling costs.
Rod1
Farm Strips. Rotax. Mogas. Permit. "
Whilst I agree that this is going to get more and more important and I regularly tour Europe, am based on a strip and my aircraft is powered by a Rotax, it is however important that we do not actively damage other forms of GA. If all the VFR aircraft move out of IFR capable airfields the remaining IFR GA aircraft will suffer crippling costs.
Rod1
If you can go lowcost and legacy that's the cheapest and easiest way to go.
But if you travel to more remote places where a small a/c can get to straight, GA has more advantages. The same goes for southern Europe with more modest weather (but expensive fuel).
If you work hard for your job during the days you cannot fly safe early mornings and late evenings at the same time yourself.
But if you travel to more remote places where a small a/c can get to straight, GA has more advantages. The same goes for southern Europe with more modest weather (but expensive fuel).
If you work hard for your job during the days you cannot fly safe early mornings and late evenings at the same time yourself.
It seems to me that IFR GA capable a/c are pretty much a minority.
We (owners/operators/pilots of less impressive planes, like Rod1 and myself) would be short-sightedly stupid to disregard their problem - what happens to them today may well happen to us tomorrow. And even if their needs and issues are not the same as ours, they are our "nearest of kin" so we do should share their concerns.