PPL/EASA/NPPL?????

[ecosse]

Hi people i am unqualified pilot with about 20h p2 in microlight and also have went solo and have around 4h solo...

the last time i flew was 1year and 6 months ago so my solo hours are gone!! essentially.

I got into microlights really for the cost and ease as its a local school and i want too be able to land everywhere and anywhere/ grass/sand/ a real bush pilot if you like.


For one reason or another(weather) i didn't get to fly in last while and its a shame to waste my time(i don't feel its wasted but i should have continued and got it done and its a shame if i dont complete it)

so my dilemma now is this....

what licence should i go for?

NPPL(M) then add seea rating
NPPL(A)
JAR PPL
LAPL.

I am confused now(easily done )

I want to fly maintain and own my own aircraft, most likely on an LAA Permit, which i believe is annex11 ? but as i gather from the caa website, i won't be able to fly a microlight if i just go straight for an LAPL EASA Liscence?

So should I continue with my Microlight licence and do this and the conversion before 2015?

or just do the 30h course with a EASA LAPL Aproved school?


I will definitely be wanting to buy something like a Piper cub, aeronca champ, luscombe 8 etc, or a EASA Microlight type like a eurostar, 601 jabiru's etc. "group A" as often advertised.

would also be nice to hire something with 4 seats and go for a tour around at some point. a 172 perhaps etc..

any suggestions welcomed, especially interested in an intensive course abroad where i can be guaranteed the weather for say 2 weeks or do a mix of some flying here then go abroad too consolidate the flying and do the licence.

I would take the Family with me somewhere and could do it quicker through the microlight route possibly as i already have dual hours on a c42.

confused dot com

also there was talk of some changes in october are they going to come into play?

Cheers

Kenny

PS The CAA is below for anyone interested


Aircraft are divided into two areas for licensing and airworthiness purposes:

EASA aircraft
non-EASA aircraft
This classification applies to types of aircraft, not individual aircraft. So, for example, if a particular Cessna 172N is an EASA aircraft then all Cessna 172N are EASA aircraft. And if one particular De Havilland Chipmunk T10 is not an EASA aircraft all such Chipmunks are classed as being non-EASA. Non-EASA aircraft are also known as Annex II (two) aircraft.

EASA aircraft
Many aircraft in Europe are classed as EASA aircraft wherever they may have been manufactured or registered. This includes many of the types you'll see around flying schools – like the Cessna range, the Piper PA-28s and PA-38s, Cirrus etc.
In the UK, holders of Part-FCL EASA licences can fly both EASA and UK-registered non-EASA aircraft that are within the ratings included in their licence.

For example: The Cessna 172 is an EASA aircraft. The Tiger Moth is a non-EASA aircraft. Both are single engine piston aircraft. So if you have a Part-FCL licence, like a PPL(A) or LAPL(A) that allows you to fly with a single-engine piston rating you can fly both the Cessna 172 (EASA) and the Tiger Moth (non-EASA). But if you have a national licence, such as the UK NPPL(SSEA), after April 8th 2015 you can only fly the Tiger Moth.

Non-EASA aircraft
With some exceptions, the following types of aircraft are defined as non-EASA aircraft and are ruled by national, not European, regulations:

Microlights
Light gyroplanes
Ex-military aircraft
Foot-launched aircraft
Vintage aircraft
You do not have to have an EASA licence to fly these types of aircraft as you can fly them if you only have a national licence.

[xrayalpha]

Choices:

Light aircraft
"Full" PPL - ie EASA SEP
"Euro" PPL - ie EASA LAPL
"UK" PPL - ie UK NPPL with SSEA rating

Microlight
UK NPPL with Micro rating

So now the questions! (if answer is NO to a question, go to the next one)

Do you want to be/think you might want to be a commercial pilot?

Yes: EASA SEP

Do you want to/think you might want to fly outside the EU

Yes: EASA SEP

Do you want to/think you might want to fly at night, or in cloud?

Yes: EASA SEP

Have you seen what it costs to hire a suitably-equipped aircraft and you have the time and money to keep your skills up to date?

Yes. EASA SEP

And are there local airfields open at night with lights and stuff that you can afford to fly to and from?

Yes. EASA SEP

Do you want to/think you might want to fly a four-seat aircraft?

Yes: EASA LAPL

Having looked at the tatty crocks of pooh that most flying clubs/schools have, do you still want to answer Yes?

Yes: EASA LAPL

Do you want to/think you might want to fly an Annexe 1 aircraft?

Yes: EASA LAPL

Having looked at the tatty crocks of pooh that most flying clubs/schools have, do you still want to answer Yes?

Yes: EASA LAPL

Have you won the lottery and want to own your own aircraft, and that aircraft might be an Annexe 1 aircraft?

Yes. EASA LAPL

Would you like to fly a modern aircraft and not one that looks all tatty and be able to afford lots of flying?

Yes. NPPL SSEA

Do you dislike exams?

Yes. NPPL Micro.

************

Now, as it happens, you can until April next year, do an NPPL (micro) and add an SSEA rating with just one or two more exams and then trade it in for a LAPL.

Misses out on the ridiculous NINE exams in EASA land and the ridiculous questions that are asked (which no-one at our club can answer - especially the one about the time in New Delhi!)

[ecosse]

ok colin

Ok colin, cheers for that.

see you soon lol!!!

[ecosse]

weather

just need the weather now then....

how long will it take to do my exams? for micro and when do we start?

[muntisk]

license required for light aircraft bellow 490kg

Dear All
What license do i need to fly light aircraft? I have EASA ATP with valid SEP rating, but under EASA there is no ultralight license. And recently somebody told me that ultralight licenses is under national regulations. I was sure if you have PPL you can fly ultralight...

[ecosse]

You can fly a light aircraft, such as an LAA Type with a permit to fly such as a C42-Eurofox-Eurostar etc.

A Microlight I'm not sure? but they are more expensive to buy and cant carry as much weight.

As you have a Full EASA Licence then I would look at a GRP-A Rather than a microlight.

One like this perhaps http://www.afors.uk/index.php?page=a...d=30004&imid=0

Its sold though

so maybe this http://www.afors.uk/index.php?page=a...d=31422&imid=0

or,Light Aircraft, Bolkow Junior 208c - Ł16,000, For Sale, advert ID=31245

Kenny

[ifitaintboeing]

What license do i need to fly light aircraft? I have EASA ATP with valid SEP rating, but under EASA there is no ultralight license. And recently somebody told me that ultralight licenses is under national regulations. I was sure if you have PPL you can fly ultralight...

If you have a valid EASA licence with SEP rating, you may fly as pilot-in-command of a microlight once you have completed differences training with an instructor. ANO Article 62(6):

A Part-FCL licence with single-engine piston aeroplane privileges is not deemed to be rendered valid for a microlight aeroplane unless the holder of the licence has undergone differences training in accordance with Section 2 of Part B of Schedule 7, appropriate for a microlight aeroplane class rating.

ifitaint...

[xrayalpha]

Ifitaint,

The differences training is only if you wish to fly the "different" type of microlight.

ie If you have flown a three-axis light aircraft (is there any other type!) then there is no "difference in control systems". But if you wished to fly a weightshift microlight, then there would be "differences" training required

However, due to lower inertia etc - and the need to feed my family! - I would recommend some conversion training.

[ifitaintboeing]

Xrayalpha,

You are incorrect. As the holder of a SEP rating you must complete differences training to be able to fly microlights. ANO Article 62(6).

You then require further differences training if you wish to convert onto another control type. ANO Schedule 7, Part B, Section 2.

ifitaint...

[Mach Jump]

I think that Xrayalpha's interpretation was the one originally intended but, not for the first time, the CAA have drafted the requirement so badly that Ifitaintboeing's interpretation is equally valid.

I've written to the new GA unit and asked this question, but so far, no response.

Unless we can get an 'official' view on this, you can take your choice, and wait for an accident to find out who is right.


MJ

[ifitaintboeing]

I think that Xrayalpha's interpretation was the one originally intended

If I recall correctly, the requirement for microlight differences training for SEP holders was introduced as a result of an AAIB recommendation following a number of accidents.

The requirement to complete differences training for transferring control types for people who hold the privileges to act as PIC on microlights was also introduced as a result of an accident and resulting AAIB recommendation.

ifitaint...

[xrayalpha]

ANO Article 62(6):

(6) A Part-FCL licence with single-engine piston aeroplane privileges is not deemed to be rendered valid for a microlight aeroplane unless the holder of the licence has undergone differences training in accordance with Section 2 of Part B of Schedule 7 , appropriate for a microlight aeroplane class rating.

so........

ANO Schedule 7 Part B Section 2:

If the aeroplane has:
(aa) three axis controls and the holder's previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with flexwing/weightshift controls;
(bb) flexwing/weightshift controls and the holder's previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with three axis controls; or
(cc) more than one engine,

before exercising the privileges of the rating the holder must complete appropriate differences training.

All came from an earlier thread.

[Mach Jump]

If I recall correctly, the requirement for microlight differences training for SEP holders was introduced as a result of an AAIB recommendation following a number of accidents.

The requirement to complete differences training for transferring control types for people who hold the privileges to act as PIC on microlights was also introduced as a result of an accident and resulting AAIB recommendation.

I think you recall quite correctly that the requirement for Differences Training when transferring between control types was introduced as a result of AAIB recommendations after a number of accidents.

I think that the drafting of this requirement, and it's subsequent re-writing when EASA Part.FCL was introduced, produced the wording we have today which suggests that there may be a requirement for Differences Training when flying any kind of Microlight for the first time.

I would suggest that, if this had been the original intention, it would have been included in the items requiring Differences Training listed in CAP804.


MJ

[ifitaintboeing]

Which 'differences training' list in CAP 804?

ifitaint...

[Mach Jump]

Which 'differences training' list in CAP 804?

CAP 804 Section 4, Part H, Subpart 1, Page 7, 4.3 'Guidance on Differences Training'.


MJ

[ifitaintboeing]

CAP 804, Section 4, Part H refers to the differences required under EASA.

However, the privilege to fly microlights using a SEP rating and the national requirements to do so are provided under national legislation. Therefore you need to look in the NPPL section...

See CAP 804, Section 5, Part A, Subpart 2, page 8:

3.1 4 Exercising the privileges on Microlight aeroplanes on the basis of an SEP(Land) Class Rating...

ifitaint...

[Mach Jump]

I take your point about the National Requirements.

However the part of Cap 804 you quote states as follows:

3.1 4 Exercising the privileges on Microlight aeroplanes on the basis of an SEP(Land)
Class Rating
The holder of a UK issued licence or any Part-FCL licence with an SEP rating, may,
subject to differences training on the appropriate class with a suitably qualified
instructor, exercise the privileges of their licence on microlight aircraft. However, any
experience gained in microlight aircraft cannot be counted towards the flying experience
necessary to maintain the full SEP or TMG privileges.

The key phrase being:

...may,
subject to differences training on the appropriate class with a suitably qualified
instructor...

The wording here is similar to that found in ANO Article 62(6), and is where the problem lies.
This phrase could, as you suggest, imply a requirement for 'Differences Training' before flying any Microlight Aircraft or, as Xrayalpha and I suggest, the need to complete any 'Differences Training' required if changing between control systems, as required at: 3.11.2

3.11.2 Microlight pilots wishing to convert between weightshift and 3-axis microlight control
systems, or to a microlight with more than one engine, shall undertake differences
training given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the microlight aeroplane on
which instruction is being given.

MJ

[Flyer1987]

Flying 3 axis on EASA Licence

Hi Guys,

I am also awaiting a reply from the CAA regarding a similar issue.

I currently hold an EASA Licence with SEP and IR(R) ratings. In addition, I have undergone differences training for weightshift microlights earlier this year by a valid instructor and been signed off in my log book for it.

I have now purchased a three axis microlight and so am unclear on where I stand licence-wise now.........

I fully intend on carrying out difference training on it but does this have to be with a valid instructor or just someone with experience on type?


I have been researching the latest CAP 804 and found this:

Section 2 – Aircraft and instructor ratings which may be included in United Kingdom
aeroplane pilot’s Licences and National Private Pilot’s Licences (Aeroplanes)

1 The following ratings may be included in a United Kingdom aeroplane pilot licence or a
National Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) granted under Part 7, and, subject to the
provisions of this Order and of the licence, the inclusion of a rating in a licence has the
consequences specified as follows.

Microlight class rating
(1) Subject to paragraph (2) and to the conditions of the licence in which it is included,
a microlight class rating entitles the holder to act as pilot in command of any
microlight aeroplane.

(2) (a) If the current certificate of revalidation for the rating is endorsed “single seat
only” the holder is only entitled to act as pilot in command of any single seat
microlight aeroplane.

(b) (i) If the aeroplane has:
(aa) three axis controls and the holder’s previous training and experience
has only been in an aeroplane with flexwing/weightshift controls;

(bb) flexwing/weightshift controls and the holder’s previous training and
experience has only been in an aeroplane with three axis controls;

or

(cc) more than one engine,

before exercising the privileges of the rating the holder must complete
appropriate differences training.


From this, I take it to mean if going from GA to Flexwing Microlights then difference training is required (as previously carried out). However, looking at point (b) (i) (aa) and (bb) my past experience has not only been on weightshift, as the majority of my experience has been on cessna's, piper's, decathlon's, Tutor's, Vigilant's, etc and therefore 'official instructor' difference training is not required. Is this correct given the majority of my experience is on fixed wing aircraft all of which operate under the same principle of flight as the three axis microlight?

Reading all the recent legislation I would agree if I were to have solely trained on flexwing microlights then difference training is required to move to three axis. However, as i'm simply to fly the 3 axis under my EASA licence and microlight difference training (M) was carried out on a flexwing, is it legally necessary to undergo further training with an instructor?

My reasoning behind this is something like a Kitfox can either be group A or Microlight class. Therefore, should I buy one of these, surely I would be well within my licence parameters to fly it under group A? But if under Microlight grouping I would need instruction from an instructor? That cant be right... its the same aircraft just different grouping.

PERSONALLY what I am half expecting as a response from the CAA, unless they intend on rewriting a very costly procedure......

...... Is that, one can use the privileges of an EASA licence to fly microlight aircraft providing 'MICROLIGHT CLASS' differences training has been carried out by a qualified instructor (i.e. on flexwing or 3 axis), in accordance with ANO Article 62(6). Should you then wish to fly a three axis aeroplane (which by their own definition is - Engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air which is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings) having carried out Microlight differences training on a flexwing then difference training on the particular type of aircraft you intend on flying is ADVISED but does not necessarily have to be with an instructor.

Would anyone disagree?

[Mach Jump]

We can only wait for the official response on this one.

My own view, is that Microlights are included in the SEP Class Rating, and that you are only required to carry out 'Differences Training' (and have an Instructor signature in your logbook) if you want to swap between control types.

Any 'Familiarisation Training' you may receive when moving between types with the same control system does not require an Instructor signature. (Unless it has other features requiring 'Differences Training'.)

As you have read, this is not a universal view.


MJ

[xrayalpha]

No need for an official response.

You can fly a three-axis microlight on a non-NPPL light aircraft licence. No differences training required, no ratings, no sign-offs in logbook. (Although training extremely highly recommended.)

Indeed, we have a microlight instructor here at Strathaven who doesn't have a microlight licence - he has an EASA SEP with a microlight instructors rating attached.

So that must be some sort of official proof!

(there was a thread here on Pprune about eight years ago when he was told by the CAA and the BMAA that he had to get a microlight rating, and thanks to ppruners - to whom I offered up a #100 donation - the CAA had to back down and issue a FI(M) on his then JAR SEP>)

We have also had a Citation pilot (and light aircraft FI) teaching on our microlight C42.

So there are quite a few people with illegal licences flying around who we have taught with instructors who don't have microlight licences!