General questions about unusual attitude/upset recovery

[piperboy84]

Many moons ago when I was training for my PPL, stall recovery was taught with first lowering the nose, then get the power in, I recently trained for another rating during which recovery from unusual attitude where low airspeed and high AOA was to be tackled with power in first then lower the nose, I asked the instructor why not lower the nose before putting the power in as I would imagine if this particular unusual attitude had you on the edge of a stall adding power first may aggravate the situation if the wings are not level He did not really have an answer and it got me thinking, at what point in a commercial pilots training does he/she get training for situations where they find themselves inverted for example? Is that recovery procedure covered in a certificate rating or during aircraft specific type rating?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

He did not really have an answer

Sort of like having a school teacher who does not know how to spell cat.

[piperboy84]

This question was not about one particular instructor as the same question was asked in ground school with a different instructor who advised that the designated examiner during the checkride will be looking for power first then lowering the nose ( which again is the reverse of what was taught for the PPL)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Then there is a systemic problem in the training industry that is worse than I thought.

Was the flying being done in an airplane with a propeller, or was it a rocket powered machine?

[maxred]

Recovery

The recovery may be discussed in three parts, but the ultimate objective is to coordinate all three actions.


To unstall

Keep the ailerons neutral. 


At the same time

Simultaneously decrease the back pressure/check forward and apply sufficient appropriate rudder to prevent further yaw.


Excessive rudder should not be applied (to level the wings through the secondary effect of rudder) as this may cause a stall and flick manoeuvre in the opposite direction to the initial roll (wing drop).


To minimise the altitude loss

Full power is smoothly but positively applied. At the same time, level the wings with aileron (as the aeroplane is now unstalled), centralise the rudder, and raise the nose smoothly to the horizon to arrest the sink and minimise the altitude loss.


Hold the nose at the level attitude, and reduce the flap setting (as appropriate to aeroplane type) immediately.


At a safe height, safe airspeed and with a positive rate of climb – raise remaining flap (counter the pitch change). The aeroplane will continue to accelerate, and at the nominated climb speed select the climb attitude.


Straight and level flight should be regained at the starting altitude and the reference point or heading regained.


Also...

If the aeroplane is reluctant to drop a wing at the stall, alter the power and flap combination (refer CFI) and relax rudder pressure to simulate the pilot's failure to maintain directional control. Alternatively, a gentle turn may be required (5 degrees angle of bank). 


There is nothing underhand about these techniques, as permitting the aeroplane to yaw or stall in the turn are possible causes of a wing-drop stall.


In addition, avoid an accelerated stall (by zooming the entry) which may produce a rapid roll. The student should see a rapid stall at some point in their training, but the first stall is not the time for it. If a pronounced wing-drop occurs, the application of full power may need to be delayed to avoid exceeding flap limiting speeds,
or on the Piper Tomahawk, VNE.


The above is what I would expect to hear for a stall recovery. In my view, powering up, in a developed stall, with a high AoA, is an advanced aerobatic maneuver, and really should not be attempted in instructional, stall and incipient spin awareness. Particularly in a School PPL, training type aeroplane.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How many people have been killed in Twin Comanche's adding power before reducing angle of attack in stalls?

[maxred]

Was it not that the Twin Comm had a beautiful tendency to go straight into an irrecoverable flat spin. Hence a total revision of min airspeeds with engine out?

Or am I thinking of something else?

[Whopity]

recovery from unusual attitude where low airspeed and high AOA

I sugest you are confusing Attitude with AoA, they are not the same thing. It is usual in practicing UPs to give the student a hight nose attitude with decreasing airspeed, if the aircraft is accelerated at the start of the manoeuvre, the AoA will be quite low because the aeroplane is actually going where it is pointing, upwards. When stalling, you entered from a power off level attitude.

[Maoraigh1]

CAA Safety Notice SN-2014-003 Stall Recovery Technique, issued 3 March 2014, might be relevant.

[maxred]

2.1 The use of an incorrect technique when attempting to recover from a stall has been identified as a causal factor in several LOC accidents. The standard stall recovery technique should always emphasise the requirement to reduce the angle of attack in order to return the aeroplane to a safe flying condition. When an approach to the stall is recognised early, and the correct recovery action is initiated without delay, this reduction in angle of attack (and consequential height loss) will be minimised.

Is it not slightly concerning that in 2014, the CAA deem it necessary to publish this document, as an update to the 2013 document of the same vein?

[Level Attitude]

Whopity's answer is correct.
The OP mentions Stall recovery and then Unusual Attitude Recovery in the same sentence.
They are not the same.

For UA: Power - Roll - Pitch works well.
Power: Throttle - Out if nose below horizon, In if nose above horizon.
Roll: To the nearest (erect) horizon.
Pitch: For level flight.

For Stall: Reduce AoA (Stick Forward if erect) asap

If close to/or in a stall then use Standard Stall Recovery irrespective of attitude. Once unstalled, then carry out UA recovery (if still necessary).

[Miserlou]

Agreed. Adding power quickly at critical AoA may cause the aircraft to stall in a propeller driven aircraft if the elevator input has not been reduced.

However, In the case of the nose high unusual attitude my company SOP is very sensible in including roll in the recovery.
!. Add thrust full.
2. Increase bank.
3. Establish appropriate pitch attitude.
4. Level wings.

The rolling away from level reduces the risk of stalling and allows the nose to fall resulting in lower load levels.

Of course, 3 and 4 occur almost simultaneously. Not suggesting one should level the nose whilst still banked.

[Heston]

You've got to be very careful about the advice given on this one folks. This is the Private Flying section of the forum, which tends to suggest SEP aircraft to me. So talk of "my company's SOP" rings alarm bells and suggests you are talking about bigger stuff. For SEP it is always:


UA with nose above horizon - stick forward and increase power, level wings once healthy airspeed shown. Recover into full power climb.


UA with nose below horizon - power(reduce), roll, pitch. Recover into full power climb.

[piperboy84]

I sugest you are confusing Attitude with AoA, they are not the same thing.

Yes, I have, further reading required.

It is interesting to note that the 3 prior posts list 3 different recovery sequences, for what it's worth linked is a AOPA vid on the subject







Unusual Attitude Recovery - General Aviation Flying Videos - AOPA

[Level Attitude]

UA with nose above horizon - stick forward why if definitely not stalled/close to stall? and increase power POWER, level wings once healthy airspeed shown ROLL. Recover into full power climb PITCH.

UA with nose below horizon - power(reduce) POWER, roll ROLL, pitch PITCH. Recover into full power climb.

This is the Private Flying section of the forum, which tends to suggest SEP aircraft to me

SEP Yes - but what about differing levels of Pilot experience and/or skill (note OP's original question).

However, In the case of the nose high unusual attitude my company SOP is very sensible in including roll in the recovery.
!. Add thrust full.
2. Increase bank.
3. Establish appropriate pitch attitude.
4. Level wings.

I disagree with this slightly:
1) POWER: Full
2) ROLL: Increase Bank Angle then, as aircraft nose drops (knifes down), Reduce Bank Angle at a rate such that wings are level when aircraft is at, or close to, usual attitude for level flight.
3) PITCH: (If necessary) to fine tune attitude for level flight.
Reset throttle as appropriate.

The above is great fun and, I believe, reduces the stresses on the aircraft (and the occupants). However, as it requires good coordination (especially to prevent going in to an Unusual Attitude downwards), it is usually only 'taught' on more advanced courses.

So, to answer the OP's original question, Power first is taught for unusual attitudes because the first thing to do in any developing situation is to prevent it from getting worse.

Of course student/early pilots may not have the necessary experience to distinguish between a nose high UA nowhere near a stall and one that is close to it so, in that situation, reducing the AoA is probably the best way to prevent the situation getting worse - but that was not the question.

[Cows getting bigger]

I think it important to fully understand the scenario. As others have intimated, if this is an UA recovery on instruments, especially limited panel, power and attitude should be applied concurrently. After all, power + attitude = performance.

Stalls are different - there is no suggestion that this UA scenario was even close to a stall.

[maxred]

I suggest you are confusing Attitude with AoA

Posted by Whopity.

I think it important to fully understand the scenario. As others have intimated, if this is an UA recovery on instruments, especially limited panel, power and attitude should be applied concurrently. After all, power + attitude = performance.

Posted by CGB

It is interesting to note that the 3 prior posts list 3 different recovery sequences, for what it's worth linked is a AOPA vid on the subject

Posted by the OP

Confused yet????

You've got to be very careful about the advice given on this one folks. This is the Private Flying section of the forum, which tends to suggest SEP aircraft to me. So talk of "my company's SOP" rings alarm bells and suggests you are talking about bigger stuff. For SEP it is always:


UA with nose above horizon - stick forward and increase power, level wings once healthy airspeed shown. Recover into full power climb.


UA with nose below horizon - power(reduce), roll, pitch. Recover into full power climb.

Posted by Heston. The best advice I think.

+1 f

[Miserlou]

LA.

I did say,

"Of course, 3 and 4 occur almost simultaneously. Not suggesting one should level the nose whilst still banked."

Maxred,

Before diverting attention away from the sound advice, please remember that even the smallest clubs will have an Operations Manual, SOPs or Flying Orders Book.
Also, please specify what's wrong with the method or technique rather than just dismissing it.

FYI, I am an experienced aerobatic/tailwheel pilot who just happens to fly for work too.

[BEagle]

...the designated examiner during the checkride will be looking for power first then lowering the nose...

Surely this stupidity has been changed now? Reduction of AoA is the overriding concern; this absurd FAA examiner nonsense of 'no loss of height' should have been firmly kicked into the long grass in the USA - as it has been everywhere else.

[The500man]

A problem it seems to me is that we have a:

• Stall recovery procedure
• Spin recovery procedure
• Unusual attitude recovery procedure
• Upset recovery procedure
• Loss of control recovery procedure

Now what is going on and which one are you going to use this time?

I'm also slightly confused with that AOPA video. Is he teaching instrument recoveries or did he just forget to mention that you can easily see what's going on by looking out the window? Airspeed is a good initial indication but beyond that...